Really?? I haven't thrown around heresy charges at you just because I disagree with you. I don't agree with your charge either because it seems that the Catechism is stating EXACTLY that and I want to know why no one around here can produce documentation from the Holy See that these Old Catholics have valid Holy Orders.
Once again from the Catechism.
Since the sacrament of Holy Orders is the sacrament of the apostolic ministry, it is for the bishops as the successors of the apostles to hand on the "gift of the Spirit,"63 the "apostolic line."64 Validly ordained bishops, i.e., those who are in the line of apostolic succession, validly confer the three degrees of the sacrament of Holy Orders.65 have valid holy orders.
What makes a validly ordained Bishop?
For lawful ordination the bishop must be a Catholic, in communion with the Holy See, free from censures, and must observe the laws prescribed for ordination. He cannot lawfully ordain any except his own subjects without authorization.
Holy Orders/Catholic Encyclopedia
Plus, I will ask again, if the Old Catholics aren't in the apostolic succession, how can any of their orders be valid?
Why do we recognize the validity of the Holy Orders of Russian Orthodox and various Slavic Orthodox Churches (granting for the sake of argument the idea that real estate confers validity)?
This might offer you an explanation, plus the fact that some Russian churches returned to full communion with the Holy see:
Russian - Russians who returned to communion with Rome in 1905. The liturgical language is Old Slavonic. An unknown number of the faithful in Russia, China, the Americas and Australia. Most Russian Christians are Russian Orthodox. Their Patriarch is the Orthodox Patriarch of Moscow. Rites of the Catholic Church/EWTN
This has the Nihil Obstat on it:
Eastern Orthodoxy "One of the most tragic divisions within Christianity is the one between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox churches. Both have valid holy orders and apostolic succession through the episcopacy, both celebrate the same sacraments, both believe almost exactly the same theology, and both proclaim the same faith in Christ."
I mentioned this before too:
1399 The Eastern churches that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church celebrate the Eucharist with great love. "These Churches, although separated from us, yet possess true sacraments, above all - by apostolic succession - the priesthood and the Eucharist, whereby they are still joined to us in closest intimacy." A certain communion in sacris, and so in the Eucharist, "given suitable circumstances and the approval of Church authority, is not merely possible but is encouraged."
Now I will ask you this. If their orders and sacraments are so "valid" why don't I just go be an Old Catholic? Hey, sounds great to me. I don't have to listen to the Pope anymore, I can be a priest since I'm married, if I get ticked at my wife instead of working it out, I can just divorce her, no more confession for me, not necessary in the Old Catholic church, and I can go around claiming that my church is Apostolic even though they have on their website:
FAQ What is the Old Catholic Church?
The Old Catholic Church traces its roots to the 7th Century
Ah.. exactly why they have been successful at pulling people out of the RC.
Dear FJ290,
"I haven't thrown around heresy charges at you just because I disagree with you."
I haven't thrown any heresy charges at you, either. However, Donatism is defined a heresy, and one component of the heresy is to hold that a sacrament may not be administered by an unworthy minister of the sacrament.
Don't argue with me, argue with the Church. This was resolved in the fourth or fifth century.
"I don't agree with your charge either because it seems that the Catechism is stating EXACTLY that and I want to know why no one around here can produce documentation from the Holy See that these Old Catholics have valid Holy Orders."
I've provided some documentation that has as the underlying premise that the Church recognizes the validity of Polish National Catholic Church Holy Orders.
You've ignored it entirely. That's not my fault.
I've explained several times why the Church doesn't comment generally on Old Catholic Holy Orders - because many of them are now invalid.
You've ignored those explanations repeatedly and entirely. That's also not my fault.
On the other hand, nothing you cite from the Catechism specifically excludes the possibility of valid Holy Orders among at least some Old Catholics and/or PNCC.
Every one of your citations either does not bear on the question of the possibility of validity of Old Catholic or PNCC orders, or actually is evidence FOR the possibility of validity in at least some cases.
"What makes a validly ordained Bishop?
"'For lawful ordination the bishop must be a Catholic, in communion with the Holy See, free from censures, and must observe the laws prescribed for ordination. He cannot lawfully ordain any except his own subjects without authorization.'"
No. You're wrong.
That is NOT what makes a VALIDLY consecrated bishop.
You have cited the Catechism about what makes a LICITLY (LAWFULLY) consecrated bishop. The preceding citation is not about VALIDITY.
Your citation is about what makes a LAWFULLY ordained bishop, not a VALIDLY ordained bishop.
One may be VALIDLY consecrated a bishop without being LAWFULLY consecrated a bishop.
You say you understand the difference between LICITNESS and VALIDITY, but the citation you offer demonstrates confusion between the two.
Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre VALIDLY consecrated four men to be bishops serving the SSPX. However, he did not LAWFULLY consecrate these men. They are not LICIT bishops. In fact, for the crime of receiving ILLICIT but VALID consecrations, these men are now excommunicated.
Their communion with the Catholic Church is broken.
Yet, should they consecrate other men to be bishops, those men will be bishops. These SSPX bishops have the power to consecrate VALIDLY men to the episcopacy. Even though they are not in communion with the Catholic Church.
Should the rupture between the SSPX and the Catholic Church become permanent, and a hundred years from now, the successors of Bishop Fellay and Williamson, et al, are still consecrating men bishops using the proper rites, etc., the SSPX will still have the Apostolic Succession, and will still have valid bishops.
And they will still not be in communion with the Catholic Church.
"Plus, I will ask again, if the Old Catholics aren't in the apostolic succession, how can any of their orders be valid?"
Well, the Old Catholics started out in the Apostolic Succession, and thus, if some of them have continued the line properly, they still have the Apostolic Succession.
"'Russian - Russians who returned to communion with Rome in 1905. The liturgical language is Old Slavonic. An unknown number of the faithful in Russia, China, the Americas and Australia. Most Russian Christians are Russian Orthodox. Their Patriarch is the Orthodox Patriarch of Moscow.'"
"Rites of the Catholic Church/EWTN"
This citation is speaking about two different groups: Russian Catholics, and Russian Orthodox.
The first part of the citation talks about those Russians that returned to the Catholic Church.
The second part of the citation contrasts Russian Catholics with Russian Orthodox: "Most Russian Christians are Russian Orthodox. Their Patriarch is the Orthodox Patriarch of Moscow."
So why do the Russian Orthodox have valid Holy Orders? Especially when there is a Russian Catholic Church to which Russians could belong, with an Old Slavonic liturgy and everything?
Why do we recognize the Holy Orders of a parallel Russian Church that IS NOT IN COMMUNION with the Catholic Church?
"Now I will ask you this. If their orders and sacraments are so 'valid' why don't I just go be an Old Catholic?"
Because it wouldn't be licit. You'd be violating Church law. If you were to join a Church not in communion with the Catholic Church, even though the Church had valid Holy Orders, valid sacraments, you'd be in schism with the CATHOLIC Church. You would cease to be a Catholic.
But if your new friends in your new-found schismatic sect had valid Holy Orders, then you would be able to receive valid sacraments, generally speaking.
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