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To: FJ290
Priestly ordination is a permanent and valid sacramental action. Merely because a priest joins another church group does not mean he ceases being a validly ordained priest.

Yes, exactly. He can't become an "unpriest" or an "unbishop" any more than you can devise a way to become "unbaptised."

You have at least three people on this thread patiently trying to point out to you that "valid" and "licit" are two different concepts. You would do well to try to learn what "licit" means and how it differs from "valid."

SD

132 posted on 08/08/2006 8:14:12 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave; sitetest
You have at least three people on this thread patiently trying to point out to you that "valid" and "licit" are two different concepts. You would do well to try to learn what "licit" means and how it differs from "valid.

Excuse me, but I happen to know the difference between licit and valid. All I have asked is for someone to show me proof from the Vatican that their orders are valid and no one has been able to do that. I have, however, shown from the San Bernadino Diocese website that says "It IS INCORRECT TO SAY THAT ALL SACRAMENTS OF THE OLD CATHOLIC CHURCH ARE CONSIDERED VALID IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH."

Holy Orders are one of the seven sacraments. Where is an officical Vatican document stating their Holy Orders are valid? If this can be shown to me, then I will happily cede the point. From what I can find, there are people that claim that they are, but there is NO Vatican proof that they are considered valid. I can't find it in Canon Law, I can't find it at the Vatican website, where is this written in stone that their orders are valid?

Per the Encyclical of Pope Pius IX, Graves Ac Diuturnae, it says:

The serious and long-lasting plots and efforts which the new heretics who call themselves Old Catholics use daily in your country to deceive the faithful and to tear them away from their ancient faith, urge Us, as a duty of Our supreme apostolate, to zealously devote Our paternal care and attention to protecting the spiritual welfare of our children. We are aware, and We sorrowfully deplore the fact, that these schismatics and heretics who enjoy the favor of the civil authority exercise the ministry of their wicked sect in the region of the diocese of Basel as in other regions of your country while the religious freedom of Catholics remains publicly oppressed by schismatic laws.

Graves Ac Diuturnae

So what these 3 Catholics are trying to tell me that we consider a heretical, schismatic's sect Holy Orders valid?

I would suggest that it would do well for you to consider what the Diocese of San Bernandino said:

"Is it trite when Old Catholic ministers claim their sacraments are considered valid by our Church."

Also, are we now going around saying that what Pope Pius IX called a "wicked sect" hellbent on tearing the RC apart, have valid Holy Orders?? These people haven't changed either considering their recent ordination of Roman Catholic women among other things.

The Catechism says that:

1576 Since the sacrament of Holy Orders is the sacrament of the apostolic ministry, it is for the bishops as the successors of the apostles to hand on the "gift of the Spirit,"63 the "apostolic line."64 Validly ordained bishops, i.e., those who are in the line of apostolic succession, validly confer the three degrees of the sacrament of Holy Orders.65

How can their Bishops be in the apostolic succession if they are a heretical, schismatic sect? How many One, Holy, Apostolic churches are there?

How can their priests be validly ordained, if their Bishops are not included in the apostolic succession?

The Church says that the Eastern Churches are the only ones that share that with us.

133 posted on 08/08/2006 10:33:10 AM PDT by FJ290
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