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To: FJ290
I also think it is helpful to read "On the Nullity of Anglican Orders, Apostolicae Curae."

[sigh]

Yes, Anglican orders are invalid. Ott goes into detail on this as well. They are invalid because (a) the ordination ritual was modified in the 1550's in such a way that (in Rome's view) it became invalid as to form (see my post above); and (b) there is doubt about whether the Archbishop of Canterbury at that time, through whom most Anglican orders pass, was validly ordained (invalid minister). Lack of valid minister or lack of valid form renders the sacrament invalid.

The invalidity of Anglican orders does not imply anything about anyone else's orders, most notably those of the Old Catholics or the PNCC.

115 posted on 08/07/2006 6:13:13 PM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Campion; sitetest
The invalidity of Anglican orders does not imply anything about anyone else's orders, most notably those of the Old Catholics or the PNCC.

This is from the Diocese of San Bernadino. I think it is quite clear that they don't view the Old Catholics as having much that is valid:

Also, Church Law teaches clearly that the Catholic members of Christ's faithful may lawfully receive the sacraments only from lawfully recognized and approved priests of the Roman Catholic Church. (Canon 844, section 1). This is most especially the case for the sacrament of the Eucharist, the Mass.4 A Roman Catholic who knowingly and consciously receives the sacraments of any Old Catholic church group formally and publicly destroys their unity of faith, worship, and life that exists with the Roman Catholic Church. Therefore, it is very important to understand this fact: Even if a certain Old Catholic sacrament were valid, the Roman Catholic faithful are not permitted to receive such a sacrament lawfully and legitimately.

They go on to say:

Priestly ordination is a permanent and valid sacramental action. Merely because a priest joins another church group does not mean he ceases being a validly ordained priest. However, in order to function and serve the community, a Roman Catholic priest needs special permissions called "faculties" in order to function validly and lawfully. No minister of the Old Catholic church possesses faculties from the local Roman Catholic Bishop to administer any sacrament to any Roman Catholic member of the Bishop's Diocese.

Also, any Roman Catholic priest who formally joins another religion (either Christian or non-Christian), such as the Old Catholic church, is formally and totally separating himself from communion with the Roman Catholic Church and the tradition and primacy of the Pope. Church Law clearly teaches that such priests are forbidden to celebrate the sacraments and exercise any church office for the benefit of the people (Canon 1331, section 1, nos. 2 and 3; also, Canon 1336, section 1, nos. 1, 2, 3).

This is, IMO, a pretty clear statement on their validity of Holy Orders:

"Is it trite when Old Catholic ministers claim their sacraments are considered valid by our Church" Only a handful of sacraments of Protestant churches are considered valid by the Roman Catholic Church. For example, the Roman Catholic Church does accept the Christian baptism of several Protestant denominations (e.g., Presbyterian, Episcopalian, and etc.). 2 However, the baptisms of other denominations are not be accepted as valid (e.g., Jehovah's Witnesses, Quakers, and etc.).3 To determine if a sacrament is valid, it is important to study the situation on a case by case basis. It IS INCORRECT TO SAY THAT ALL SACRAMENTS OF THE OLD CATHOLIC CHURCH ARE CONSIDERED VALID IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH. The sacraments and rites of an Old Catholic church group may appear identical in form and language to those of the Roman Catholic Church. However, these Old Catholic rituals lack the essential unity with the Roman Catholic faith and tradition of the last 2000 years.

I hope this has cleared up why I feel the way I do about this situation.

What is Catholic, What is Not

121 posted on 08/07/2006 10:13:31 PM PDT by FJ290
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