Publishing Armageddon

American Vision ^ | 7/24/2006 | Gary DeMar

[topcat54]

If I were you, I would reexamine my "optimism." Scripture nowhere says things are going to get better and better and then Jesus comes. Rather it says men shall wax worse and worse.

I see your biases are showing.

"But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived." (2 Tim. 3:13)

Note carefully that it does not say, as you apparently wish it to say, that mankind in general will "wax worse and worse." The word is spoken against a specific group of men, and, like Pharoah, they will continue in the hard-heartedness, growing worse and worse.

Thankfully the King has control over the hearts of men, and, by the power of His Holy Spirit, they are changed from hearts of stone to hearts of flesh. This is our delight in the poower of the gospel.

I'm optimistic because Christ is reigning over the nations, and His kingdom is advancing.

"All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen." (Matt. 28)

When Christ claims all authority and commands His followers to make disciples of all the nations, there is an implied expectation of success. There is an expectation that things will get better and better as more nations come under the influence of the gospel. We have seen that in history. The pessimist will not see it becaused they are looking for immediate perfection. But, just like when salvation comes to an individual, subjective holiness (sanctification) is a process that follows on the declaration of objective holiness (justification) which ultimately will lead to total holiness (glorification).

Glorification in the world will come about when sin is once and for all time cast into the lake of fire with Satan and all the enemies of the gospel.

[topcat54]

Did Jesus return with clouds and did every eye see him in 70 AD? I can't seem to find any eyewitness accounts of that event in any scriptural or historical documents. Perhaps I missed something.

If you are expecting me to answer according to your literalist presuppositions, then I'm afraid I'm going to disappoint.

Christ told the high priest, "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matt. 26:64). Jesus spoke those words personally and directly to the high priest and the other priestly leadership of Israel. The phrase "coming in clouds" was understood by the Hebrew people as an identification with divine power and glory. The "clouds" in this passage and the OT allusion was never to be taken "literally". E.g., "Sing to God, sing praises to His name; Extol Him who rides on the clouds, By His name Yah, And rejoice before Him." (Psalm 68:34), and "Clouds and darkness surround Him; Righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne." (Psalm 97:2)

Notice also Daniel 7:

I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed.

Note in this vision of the triumph of Messiah that He is coming up to God the father, the Ancient of Days, in this imagery. There is no reason to take "clouds" in the literal sense of suspended atmospheric water droplets.

If your reference is to Rev. 1:7, notice the context is as a witness to the "tribes who dwell in the land", an obvious reference to ancient, national Israel. They did witness Christ's coming in judgment when the power of God was poured out upon unrepentant Israel in AD70 at the hands of the Roman armies. The "tribes of the land" do not exist today, nor have they existed for the last 2000 years.

Again, you cannot see these things with literalist glasses, but they are clearly there.

[topcat54]

BTW, I would like your answer to my question about how you would describe the popular dispensational, premil version of the "thousand years" as "paradise"?

[Blogger]

There is none who does good, no not one.

[topcat54]

There is none who does good, no not one.

That an odd statement to try to prove that things will get worse and worse over time.

Since there are sinners living in your futurist millennium, even Christ's alleged premil coming does not solve your problem.

I think you are grasping at straws.

[topcat54]

I would describe it as the millenial reign.

You would describe what as the millenial reign?

Paradise was a holding place for the Old Testament Saints prior to the crucifixion.

Huh?? I suppose you have some verses to demonstrate that theory, and to explain why Jesus speaks to the thief being in paradise after the crucifixion.

[Alex Murphy]

From that most reliable of Christian news sources, The Lark...

Readers show no limit to tolerance of end times books

NEW YORK - Readers gobbled down millions of end times books last year, and there seems to be no end to their appetite. Publishers now plan no fewer than 2,000 new fiction titles set in the end times, including the widely anticipated children's title, "Daddy, When's the Rapture?"
"We don't see a limit to the popularity of the subject, so we'll stay on course," said one publisher. "Our marketing plan calls for us to put out Revelation-based books until people start vomiting them up."

[Gamecock]

***There is none who does good, no not one.***

Umm, that refers to man's total depravity, not our state after regeneration.

[P-Marlowe]

If you are expecting me to answer according to your literalist presuppositions, then I'm afraid I'm going to disappoint.

There was no presupposition. I was just asking a yes or no question. Did Jesus return with clouds and did every eye see him in 70AD? Simple yes or no question. Requires nothing more than a simple yes or no answer. You can take 10000 words to explain your yes or no answer. That's fine. Just start your essay with a yes or a no.

Again, you cannot see these things with literalist glasses, but they are clearly there.

Perhaps I need the Urim and Thummim? Or maybe if I stuck my head in a hat then the spiritual light would shine?

[topcat54]

Did Jesus return with clouds and did every eye see him in 70AD? Simple yes or no question. Requires nothing more than a simple yes or no answer.

Well, then I would say "yes".

[topcat54]

Anyone familiar with this book?

At one place the author writes:

"But dispensationalism moves beyond what the church has always believed. In developing the idea that the rapture will occur before the tribulation, and by suggesting a period of history from which Christians will be removed, dispensationalism represents a real departure from the church’s historic faith. This does not mean that it is wrong, merely innovative; but the novelty of dispensationalism is even more marked in the publications of those popular prophecy ‘experts’ who write their own political fears into their exegesis of biblical truth. A long line of prophecy ‘experts’ has found in Scripture all manner of references to the bogeymen of the present. Every anti-hero of the day has been written into the scenario of the end, from Cold War Communism to the increasingly powerful United Nations. What these villains have in common is the danger to the American way of life they are believed to represent. In that sense, dispensationalism is a theology strongly inflected by fear. From the late nineteenth century to the present day, dispensationalism has articulated an ultimately American doomsday."

[P-Marlowe]

Well, then I would say "yes".

Thank you.

Do you know of any eyewitness accounts from people who actually saw Him?

Since the coming of Christ was allegorical and the clouds are allegorical and the thousand years were allegorical and the eyes which saw Christ in 70 AD were not physical eyes, but allegorical eyes, is the lake of fire allegorical? Is the great white throne allegorical? Are the books which are opened allegorical? Is Satan allegorical?

[Alex Murphy]

Did Jesus return with clouds and did every eye see him in 70AD?

I was going to post "yes" as my colleagues did, but then I read your statement again.

I have to say "NO" because you changed the wording to say that Jesus was describing the Second Coming, and not some prior event. In doing so, you unwittingly make the case that Jesus lied to Pilate, about Pilate's seeing all the events of Matthew 26:64 for himself. You're arguing that Jesus must have been speaking to some off-screen party instead!

Coincidentally, in one of the apocryphal gospels, the same event is recorded, and Pilate is said to have responded "Excuse me, but who are You talking to?" to which Jesus replied "You'll have to forgive me. I've been kept up all night and I'm feeling a bit light-headed. Or else it's the head trauma, after all those blows to my head given your soldiers have given me. Then again, I've lost a lot of blood in the last three hours. Nasty business, that scourging." Most experts do not consider this gospel a reliable source, questioning it's authenticity.

Note that not only did Jesus say Pilate would see His "coming on the clouds", but that even prior to that, Pilate would see Him sitting on His throne. How do you account for that claim, if Jesus is talking about His "Second Coming"?

Christ told the high priest, "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matt. 26:64).

[Gamecock]

I'm reading this:

Right now (second chapter) he is unpacking the types of the anti-Christ found in the OT

Riddlebarger is an amillenialist. I think I lean in that direction.

[Alex Murphy]

I think I lean in that direction

I can recommend a good brand of corrective shoes, if it's starting to affect your spine.

[Gamecock]

Oh, here is a review:

"Beyond sensationalism and silliness, this book on the Antichrist corrects a tendency among a lot of us simply to ignore the topic. Riddlebarger writes with accessible prose, although there is always more research and analysis behind it than meets the eye. If you want to learn about this strange New Testament figure without all the hype usually associated with the genre, look no further. It's serious, interesting, well-informed, and edifying reading."
--Michael Horton, professor of theology and apologetics, Westminster Seminary California

FWIW, RC Sproul thinks the dispensational idea of a pretrib rapture is "goofy."

[P-Marlowe]

Christ told the high priest, "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matt. 26:64).

And he will. And so will I. And so will you. EVERY EYE shall see him. In heaven, on earth, and in hell. That hasn't happened yet, but when it does, the High Priest will see it. You can bank on it.

BTW in Mt 26:64 Jesus was addressing the High Priest and not Pilate. Were you referencing some other verse?

[topcat54]

Do you know of any eyewitness accounts from people who actually saw Him?

Again, I'm not going to fall into your literalist trap. You seemed to think a simple yes/no was all that was required. As I have demonstrated, that is not the case since you starting interpreting the matter according to your hermeneutical biases.

The high priest "saw" Jesus' coming to judge Israel for killing the Messiah, just has He predicted.

"Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation." (Matt. 23; cf Matt. 27:25)

Not every coming in the Bible is the "second coming". For example, Jesus said, "Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Now, either this was fulfilled in the 1st century, or there are 2000 year old folks running around the world somewhere who will still be alive when Jesus returns.

Yes, Jesus came in AD70 and fulfilled the passage. No, it was not the "second coming".

[Alex Murphy]

BTW in Mt 26:64 Jesus was addressing the High Priest and not Pilate. Were you referencing some other verse?

Nope - my error. Thanks for the correction.

[Blogger]

So, you now live in sinless perfection?