Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: DouglasKC; AnAmericanMother; sionnsar; PetroniusMaximus; Alia

Well, the text certainly does suggest that the Church became wholly heretic by the time of Ignatius. This is very convenient as, if it were true, that would completely impeach the triple ministry of Bishops, presbyters and deacons and call the continuing Church Apostolicity into serious question.

But let us know who wrote this:

The organization sponsoring the site is the United Church of God. This group appears not to understand the concept of ousia/hypostasis, nor of the natures of Christ (they appear to have a subtle Arian attitude toward Him, implying eternal co-existence but never quite the unity proclaimed by the Church), nor of the Personhood of the Holy Spirit (who comes across as an powerful emanation, rather than a co-equal Person). Nor do they appear to recognize the validity or purpose of any Sacrament except that of Baptism, which they understand in a spiritual rather than complete (i.e., spiritual and bodily) sense. For instance, the Eucharist, directly commanded by our Lord and clearly explained and expounded by Paul (see I Cor 11:17 et seq.), is never even mentioned. Nor is the text John 6:41-51, where our Lord's words about being the bread of life and the key statement, "If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh" is also never stated.

On the other hand, they do insist upon ritual cleanliness in foods, observe Easter as Quartodecemians and hold their Sabbath on Saturday. In the former case, Matt 15:3-9 should have sufficed to erase the Levitical prohibitions on ritual cleanliness. As to 14 Abib, nowhere in the Catholic Church is this dating still used. It is true that the West and East do not agree on which date to set Easter, but both agree on the process, and neither use the Hebrew calendar. Maintaining Saturday as the Sabbath implicitly sets the ancient Hebrew celebration of the Creation ahead of the Resurrection of Christ. The Universal Church has decided otherwise.

I might also point out that they never do quite connect the local heresies in Galatia and Corinth with what eventually developed as the Eucharist and the Apostolic Ministry, yet they do assert that the whole Church languished in disorderly heresy until set right by Constantine.

This rather begs a great number of questions, not the least of which is where Constantine received his Apostolic mandate to regularize and institutionalize the Church. There happens to be a great literature on the subject, but none of that is cited here.

So while there is useful Scriptural citation here (and some felicitious translation), this whole article is a perfect example of exactly what Paul, Peter and John were prophesying against.

I thank you for bringing this to attention and am glad I read it. I do wish the authors were of the true Apostolic succession and joyful members of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. On the evidence of this and other articles at their website, I cannot come to that conclusion but rather that they have taken on Montanist, Seventh-Day-Adventist and even Lollard attitudes, perhaps out of fear and anxiety about the perilous times in which we live. But then again, all times are perilous until our Lord returns in glory. We are to hold up our eyes and look to the heavens whence comes our salvation and believe on Him, letting all eartly concerns be set aside as transient and of no account.


3 posted on 07/08/2006 7:49:41 AM PDT by BelegStrongbow (www.stjosephssanford.org)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]


To: BelegStrongbow

Well said!


4 posted on 07/08/2006 7:54:53 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies ]

To: BelegStrongbow

Very helpful edification. Thanks!


6 posted on 07/08/2006 8:09:00 AM PDT by Huber ("Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of classes - our ancestors." - G K Chesterton)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies ]

To: BelegStrongbow
This group appears not to understand the concept of ousia/hypostasis, nor of the natures of Christ (they appear to have a subtle Arian attitude toward Him, implying eternal co-existence but never quite the unity proclaimed by the Church), nor of the Personhood of the Holy Spirit (who comes across as an powerful emanation, rather than a co-equal Person). Nor do they appear to recognize the validity or purpose of any Sacrament except that of Baptism, which they understand in a spiritual rather than complete (i.e., spiritual and bodily) sense. For instance, the Eucharist, directly commanded by our Lord and clearly explained and expounded by Paul (see I Cor 11:17 et seq.), is never even mentioned. Nor is the text John 6:41-51, where our Lord's words about being the bread of life and the key statement, "If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh" is also never stated.

Thanks for your response. There are a number of mistatements here, but I'm going to confine the discussion as to how they pertain to the point of the article.

You mention the Eucharist. One of the ways in which traditional Christianity has strayed from the truth is in WHEN the bread and wine are supposed to be eaten and drank in remembrance of Christ. In remembrance:

1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

The partaking (and I'm sure you'll agree), is done in remembrance of Christ and his sacrifice. It's memorial to his death.

What has been lost is that this was done on Passover, a festival instituted by God:

Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD's passover.

Passover, the Lord's passover, is a yearly event. Memorials are held on a yearly basis. Christ changed the way Passover is celebrated by illuminating it's true meaning. He did NOT change the fact that Passover, and all of the Lord's festivals, still exists.

Traditional Christianity has removed those festivals and instituted their own. This is just one way that it has deviaed from the bible.

1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

On the other hand, they do insist upon ritual cleanliness in foods, observe Easter as Quartodecemians and hold their Sabbath on Saturday.

A couple of points that are mistaken on this. I do not, and nor does UCG, insist upon "ritual cleanliness" of foods. Again, this is another area in which traditional Christianity as deviated from God's word. God created certain animals as food for humans, and many animals as not acceptable for food. These are clearly listed in Levitucus:

Lev 11:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the earth.

God tells his children what animals to eat and what not to eat.

It's possible that you're confusing the ritual eating habits of the Jewish religion with what's in the bible. Christ agreed that this ritual is a manmade custom:

Mat 15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

You quoted Matthew 15, but the verses quoted show that Christ was addressing traditions of the Jewish "church", not what was written in scripture. The traditional Christian church is in the same circumstance today, elevating tradition over scripture.

Concerning the sabbath, guilty. The Lord's sabbath is on the 7th day, from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset:

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The Lord blessed the sabbath and day and made it holy. Good enough for me.

This rather begs a great number of questions, not the least of which is where Constantine received his Apostolic mandate to regularize and institutionalize the Church. There happens to be a great literature on the subject, but none of that is cited here.

With good reason. The authority of scripture is superior to any opinions or treatises that man has written concerning it. That's why the article focuses on scripture rather than historical opinions of men.

thank you for bringing this to attention and am glad I read it. I do wish the authors were of the true Apostolic succession and joyful members of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

I thank you for your respectful tone. Obviously I don't share your belief that the Catholic church IS the church established by Christ, although I'm sure there are members, or at least future members of God's church within that organization.

8 posted on 07/08/2006 8:18:38 AM PDT by DouglasKC
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies ]

To: BelegStrongbow

I have studied saints and miracles. I feel sad when I encounter someone like this, because I think their religion does not have history or the strenght of being part of the mystical body of Christ. Becausre their focus is always exclusively on the first century, they do not see what majesty the Holy Spirit has accomplished through his church. They are suceptible to da Vinci code type challenges because they do not see the living God renewing his work in every century including ours.


13 posted on 07/08/2006 8:33:28 AM PDT by ClaireSolt (.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson