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To: Forest Keeper; NYer; Judith Anne
I will get to the Erasmus thread tomorrow. This is the passage in question (Douay):

... a great multitude followed [Jesus], and they thronged him. 25 And a woman who was under an issue of blood twelve years,

26 And had suffered many things from many physicians; and had spent all that she had, and was nothing the better, but rather worse, 27 When she had heard of Jesus, came in the crowd behind him, and touched his garment. 28 For she said: If I shall touch but his garment, I shall be whole. 29 And forthwith the fountain of her blood was dried up, and she felt in her body that she was healed of the evil. 30 And immediately Jesus knowing in himself the virtue that had proceeded from him, turning to the multitude, said: Who hath touched my garments?

31 And his disciples said to him: Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou who hath touched me? 32 And he looked about to see her who had done this. 33 But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth. 34 And he said to her: Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole: go in peace, and be thou whole of thy disease.

(Mark 5)

It seems that Jesus gave credit not to her decision to touch His garment, but rather to her faith, which she already had. Jesus makes no statement akin to pronouncing her saved because of what she did. So, what effect on the woman's salvation would you say this event had? It appears she already knew (and was right) ahead of time that her plan would work

Certainly the woman had faith before she touched His garment (v 28). But she did not get whole until she did touch (v 29). This illustrates the Catholic distinction between declarative faith (which she had before deciding to touch the garment) and formed faith (which resulted in doing certian work: getting close in the crowd and reaching the garment). We believe that it is the faith accompanied by action,-- formed faith,-- in this case venerating Christ's garment, that "makes whole", that is, saves.

What in the story leads you to think that Christ's garment brought her faith to fruition?

The fact that she did not get whole until she touched it, and that the saving divine grace did not get dispatched to her till she did (vv 29, 30).

I took that to mean that the action we are talking about (completion to fruition) would have been on the woman's faith, not her medical condition. But I may have misinterpreted.

I think that in all healing episodes, while medical healing indeed takes place, the lesson to us is about spiritual healing of sin, i.e. achieving salvation. In this case, there was nothing medically therapeutic about the garment, -- it was not soaked in Tiger Balm, or such. She venerated the garment because it was worn by Christ; that is to say, her faith was expressed through work, and delivered salvation even outside of Christ's conscious involvement (v.30).

20 posted on 07/04/2006 2:05:59 PM PDT by annalex
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To: annalex

Thanks. That's the way I read it.


21 posted on 07/04/2006 2:33:47 PM PDT by Judith Anne (Thank you St. Jude for favors granted.)
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To: annalex; Forest Keeper; Judith Anne
She venerated the garment because it was worn by Christ; that is to say, her faith was expressed through work, and delivered salvation even outside of Christ's conscious involvement (v.30).

You are quite correct except that He was consciously involved. He asked: "who touched my garment"?.

Perhaps you are magnifying this episode into something much bigger than it actually was. This is one of the Gospels read during Lent in the Maronite Church. The message is actually quite simple. It is her faith that has healed her, not our Lord's garment. The woman believed that by touching the 'hem' of his garment, she would be healed. That touch transmitted her faith to our Lord who asked "who" had touched his garment. In a crowd of this size, many had touched his garment but this woman recognized Him as the Messiah and connected that recognition to the act of touching an article of clothing the He wore. She might just as easily have said "if I touch His hair", or "His hand", or "His toe" ... the point quite simply is that her faith in Him was transmitted by the touch and He responded to it, unlike all the others gathered around our Lord that day.

22 posted on 07/04/2006 3:39:18 PM PDT by NYer (Discover the beauty of the Eastern Catholic Churches - freepmail me for more information.)
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To: annalex; NYer; Judith Anne
We believe that it is the faith accompanied by action,-- formed faith,-- in this case venerating Christ's garment, that "makes whole", that is, saves.

OK, I think I see where you are coming from now. It all depends on what "makes whole" means. In the Douay verse 34 the word "whole" is said twice and very closely together. I can see a reasonable interpretation that they could have different meanings in this context. In my version (NIV) it says: "He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering." But when I checked the KJV, it appears to agree much more with you. Therefore, if this context is correct, then I would agree with what NYer said: "It is her faith that has healed her, not our Lord's garment."

I have not heard before of the distinction between declarative faith and formed faith. From what you said, I gather that the woman, before she actually reached out and touched the garment, was on a path to hell had she dropped dead before she could reach Jesus. I really don't get that impression from this passage in any translation. What kind or number of works are required to move from one type of faith to the other? I ask because I find it unlikely that this woman's "first" work, given what we are told about her faith, was to touch Jesus' garment. What is the perfection mechanism in terms of works?

23 posted on 07/05/2006 3:29:30 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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