Posted on 06/29/2006 5:36:14 PM PDT by NYer
Got the end of that quote wrong, but couldn't find my volume of Frost.
Consider this a personal invitation to attend Mass at any Catholic Church. Here's how another protestant described the experience.
Scott Hahn¹s The Lamb's Supper - The Mass as Heaven on Earth.
Foreword by Fr. Benedict Groeschel.
Part One - The Gift of the Mass
Hahn begins by describing the first mass he ever attended.
"There I stood, a man incognito, a Protestant minister in plainclothes, slipping into the back of a Catholic chapel in Milwaukee to witness my first Mass. Curiosity had driven me there, and I still didn't feel sure that it was healthy curiosity. Studying the writings of the earliest Christians, I'd found countless references to "the liturgy," "the Eucharist," "the sacrifice." For those first Christians, the Bible - the book I loved above all - was incomprehensible apart from the event that today's Catholics called "the Mass."
"I wanted to understand the early Christians; yet I'd had no experience of Liturgy. So I persuaded myself to go and see, as a sort of academic exercise, but vowing all along that I would neither kneel nor take part in idolatry."
I took my seat in the shadows, in a pew at the very back of that basement chapel. Before me were a goodly number of worshipers, men and women of all ages. Their genuflections impressed me, as did their apparent concentration in prayer. Then a bell rang, and they all stood as the priest emerged from a door beside the altar.
Unsure of myself, I remained seated. For years, as an evangelical Calvinist, I'd been trained to believe that the Mass was the ultimate sacrilege a human could commit. The Mass, I had been taught, was a ritual that purported to "resacrifice Jesus Christ." So I would remain an observer. I would stay seated, with my Bible open beside me.
As the Mass moved on, however, something hit me. My Bible wasn't just beside me. It was before me - in the words of the Mass! One line was from Isaiah, another from Psalms, another from Paul. The experience was overwhelming. I wanted to stop everything and shout, "Hey, can I explain what's happening from Scripture? This is great!" Still, I maintained my observer status. I remained on the sidelines until I heard the priest pronounce the words of consecration: "This is My body . . . This is the cup of My blood."
Then I felt all my doubt drain away. As I saw the priest raise that white host, I felt a prayer surge from my heart in a whisper: "My Lord and my God. That's really you!"
I was what you might call a basket case from that point. I couldn't imagine a greater excitement than what those words had worked upon me. Yet the experience was intensified just a moment later, when I heard the congregation recite: "Lamb of God . . . Lamb of God . . . Lamb of God," and the priest respond, "This is the Lamb of God . . ." as he raised the host. In less than a minute, the phrase "Lamb of God" had rung out four times. From long years of studying the Bible, I immediately knew where I was. I was in the Book of Revelation, where Jesus is called the Lamb no less than twenty-eight times in twenty-two chapters. I was at the marriage feast that John describes at the end of that very last book of the Bible. I was before the throne of heaven, where Jesus is hailed forever as the Lamb. I wasn't ready for this, though - I was at Mass!
Perhaps you have not .But it is a common occurrence, and frankly, one I think is important.
If a confession wants to discuss something without being challenged, there are many other cites where this is possible.
And since there is no scriptural basis for Mary's having anything to do with our redemption except historically being the mother of Jesus, why make up this superstition? What does it add to what Jesus has already accomplished for our salvation?
We ask Mary to pray for our salvation to Christ, thus God, and to intercede with him directly on our behalf. Mary was very important in the earliest days of the Church, and helped bring others to Christ her son. It may not explicitly outline Mary's place in Scripture, but that is where Church tradition comes into play. The Church was around before the New Testament was written down. They followed the Torah, and what Christ instructed them to do after his ascension. Many Catholic practices and "rituals" came about during this transitional time period. They would not have written in the practices of their Christian faith at that time, as it is not the Word of God, but rather works that the Lord wants them to do.
In regards to the vicarious and participatory natures/views of Catholicism and Protestantism, I think that derives from Jesus saying, "go and sin no more". I believe here, Jesus forgave Mary of Magdalene of all her past transgressions, but wants her do avoid doing more sin. Yes, Christ's crucification has redeemed us all, but as a matter of punishment, some will burn in hell far longer than others if they don't actively live up to what Christ wants of them. That is where the participatory aspects comes into play, to confess our sins, and join them to our lords for reconciliation, and for punishment, and thus forgiveness. I believe being strictly vicarious is what has led so many Protestant denominations into liberalism and apostasy.
Yet they don't understand the appeal of "once saved always saved" Protestantism. They can understand every religion on earth except that of the Bible Belt.
That whole paragraph is a matter of faith. I believe that everyone will end up being saved, but because of their sins (especially those committed with intentional malice) will go to hell to pay for what they have done, and for nor repenting. Christ saved us, but we have to earn it, or keep up our end of the bargain so to speak. It is dangerous to go around thinking that one can do what they want, because they are already saved. To me, that is a slap in the face of the Lord, and is very hypocritical. Too many Christians have succumb to that, and that is why Catholics have the outlook that they do.
Your synergia argument swings both ways, and it seems we look at each other as being "like the Jews", or being the new pharisees. Again, it's a matter of an outlook of faith. As a Catholic, I believe that through the power of the keys that Christ gave to Peter (thus the power to bind and loose), the Church is the vessel to my salvation in Christ, through him, with him, and in him, with the unity of the Holy Spirit, one God, forever and ever.
Like you, I don't like the name calling. I wish people would avoid making inflammatory comments to people of other denominations. I leave other denominational threads alone, but I am a reactionary when my Church is unfairly attacked, and I try to defend her in my limited capacity. I don't mind theological debates at all, but the trolling and deliberate ignorance of many of the posters angers me. We all have more in common than we think, we believe in the same Lord, but have different ways of doing so. Live and let live is what we should be doing, and in fact, we should be allying ourselves against Islam.
If I am not on later to respond, have a happy 4th of July.
The title "Mother of God" is not saying that God had a mother in His spiritual nature. It mean that Jesus is ONE person, who had two natures, human and divine, and those natures are inseparable. Jesus is fully God, with no detriment to His humanity, and is fully man, with no detriment to His divinity. To say what you said above is to separate the natures.
My father was having trouble eating and sleeping. I prayed the rosary for him, and the next day he improved greatly. I believe Mary interceded directly to the Lord for my father. (If you look at the components of the rosary, you will see it is centered on Christ, and is an instrument of devotion).
Praying to the saints is just like having good people you know pray for you, but with the knowledge and belief that the saints are in heaven, and as being favored by the Lord, can intercede directly on our behalf. There is nothing about it that compromises my faith in Christ at all. It's a misunderstanding if that is what you think.
Usually, I don't post things pertaining to my religious beliefs. But your post raised my blood pressure beyond belief. How dare you refer to Mary as a sinner!!? HOW DARE YOU!!!!
Do you really believe in your heart of hearts, the Christ, the Holy of Holies, would EVER allow himself to be born from a human ..........that had sin! Do you remember from the old testament, how the Jewish people treated the Ark of the Covenant? How it was purified, made of gold, it's measurements, dictated by God to be exact, how it was revered and only certain people could be in it's presence? And this Ark only held two tablets of stone. How much more important and holy would this new "ark" have to be to carry the Son of God...............God. Think about it. She is not a sinner.
Catholics do not pray to Mary. We ask for her prayers. Period. Just like you might ask a friend to pray for you if you were sick. There may be, and I'm sure there are, many Catholics who not only pray to Mary, but treat her like a god. That may be so, however, it is NOT the teaching of the Catholic Church. The Church teaches, that only the Blessed and Most Holy Trinity is God, and there is no other.
And isn't it coincidental, that our Lord's first recorded miracle was because his mother "intereceded" for someone. With God, there are no coincidences.
You know, of course, you just screwed up my holiday. Now I have to down load your post and deconstruct it and look at my commentaries to see if it's so. I guess the gardens will have to wait for another weekend. Is it possible to get a note from you for my wife so that she can see that I have to study this holiday in order to respond to your post?
Women do not give birth to human natures; they give birth to persons. Mary thus carried and gave birth to the person of Jesus Christ, and the person she gave birth to was God.
Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ.
To deny that Mary is God’s mother implies doubt about Jesus’ divinity.
When you cannot answer any of his extremely cogent comments you identify his writing as a rant and say he is bearing false witness. Where, I would like to know?
I think Theoden did not word that correctly.
Let's agree to disagree on this without being disagreeable.
Gardening is a golden opportunity to prayerfully reflect on what you have read and ask our Lord for guidance. Enjoy the weekend and your beautiful wife. This forum and its threads will still be here next week, God willing ;-)
I'm Catholic, I don't understand why lesbians and gays choose to live such destructive lifestyles, and I don't understand why Muslims choose to believe false doctrine.
How so?
"(Rom 3:23 KJV) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
"Notice the term which God uses in this verse, "all have sinned." God is not saying some or a few or even the majority, He is definite in His usage of "ALL." This means that Mary was part of that "all.""
Now, the rest of the verse: "...they are justified (absolved of sin) by his grace as a gift, through the redemption..."
Grace given to Mary prior to the Annunciation "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee."
It's His gift and He can offer it to whomever He wants and at whatever time He wants.
He states that he believes everyone will be saved and in the same sentence said some are going to hell.
Try reading his post and get back to me.
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