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To: murphE
Murph,

As you know I do not find myself in complete agreement with SSPX but certainly they are much closer to Rome than the Orthodox who were unexcommunicated in 1964 by Paul VI not to mention probably half of the Western Catholic Church. For this reason, the SSPX definitely provides an especially valid option for Catholics who live in apostate or heretical parishes or dioceses. Apparently Rome has recently conceded the SSPX is not in formal schism but does have elements which have schismatic attitudes; this is a more objective conclusion.

Also, did I need read right here on FR that that B16 himself is reported to have conceded that the SSPX "emergency consecrations" may have been justified in that much of Europe is apostate, as HH JPII said.

Isn't the new prefect for Divine Worship who was appointed by B16, a friend of the SSPX former superior general?

My point is I find it regrettable to read one group of otherwise good Catholics discuss negatively the SSPX. We live in the real world, not in an ivory tower, and there is not a doubt in my mind that the SSPX although it does need some pruning has done much good for the Church and the salvation of souls. Would that all the Catholics adopt the Holy Father's attitide toward the SSPX instead making cheap shots.

Thanks for the post. Aside from the few political considerations which honestly I wish Bp Fellay did not allude to, I wonder if any of the SSPX critics will care to point out what heresy was in the homily.
24 posted on 06/25/2006 2:28:10 PM PDT by Piers-the-Ploughman ("The measure with which you judge will be how you are judged.")
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To: Piers-the-Ploughman
Isn't the new prefect for Divine Worship who was appointed by B16, a friend of the SSPX former superior general?

You're thinking of the Secretary for Divine Worship, Abp. Ranjith.

46 posted on 06/25/2006 7:40:02 PM PDT by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: Piers-the-Ploughman
Would that all the Catholics adopt the Holy Father's attitide toward the SSPX instead making cheap shots.

Don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen. The snide comments are kind of funny given the subject matter of Bishop Fellay's sermon was the necessity of priests to have the charity of the Sacred Heart...

This Heart will remain open, despite the attacks – because it dies (as on the Cross) in its sacrifice. So must be your charity. So must be the charity of the priest. He must not only show charity, exercise it, but it must supercede any types of attacks.

Humanly speaking, when we give charity, we expect something back. That is normal, that is human. When we don’t, we call it ingratitude – and consider it terrible – and today we are reminded of our ingratitude towards His heart, which has given so much love and receives so much ingratitude.

Yet this heart does not close. It remains open. It is very hard...it is very hard to overcome the ingratitude in returning charity for ingratitude. That is the great lesson that the priest has to exercise everyday. God’s charity is infinitely higher than any evil. And so the heart of the priest has to go so far as to forget if possible all the sufferings and all the contradictions and give again and again and again.

48 posted on 06/25/2006 8:39:38 PM PDT by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: Piers-the-Ploughman; BlackElk; sandyeggo; sitetest
Fr. Fellay on The Second Vatican Council .... In January, Cardinal Castrillon had incorrectly written that with some conditions I would accept Vatican II. Since I wanted him to know exactly what I think about the Council, I handed him Catholicism and Modernity, a booklet in French by Fr. Jean-Marc Rulleau in which he studies the Council and shows how the spirit of the Council is radically opposed to Catholicism. It is, we may say, a total demolition of the Council.

My point is I find it regrettable to read one group of otherwise good Catholics discuss negatively the SSPX.

*I know I am going out on a limb but I sense you might be referring to me.

I think the SSPX and its supporters are Neo-Pharisees. They are to the Pope what the Pharisees were to Jesus.

I think the sspx a group of psychopathological protestants in Fiddlebacks. Their psychopathology is manifested in many and varied ways but in thinking about them as psychopaths, I am at least holding out the posibility of salvation (they are quite strict in their EENS theology) because their shared delusions would, hopefully, render them not culpable for their indefensible actions. They have Bishops operating in the Jurisdiction of Bishops in Communion with the Pope. They ordain priests without dimissorial letters/ without authority. They refuse to obey the Pope and will not acknowledge his universal jurisdiction. Their confessions and mariages are invalid. They teach the Mass is evil. They teach Jews as a race are condemned. They teach an Ecumenical Council is heretical. They have created their own tribunals to annul marriages.

I could go on, but, why bother? Apparently, to you, this is all defenisble, even praise worthy. Ok.

Now, I will roll-out some authoritative Dogma and Doctrine which proves these Neo-Pharisees don't have a leg to stand on. They are totally opposed to Tradition - unless one is referencing the tradition of schism.

Errors of Luther condemned by Pope Leo X in 1520

If the pope with a great part of the Church thought so and so, he would not err; still it is not a sin or heresy to think the contrary, especially in a matter not necessary for salvation, until one alternative is condemned and another approved by a general Council. A way has been made for us for weakening the authority of councils, and for freely contradicting their actions, and judging their decrees, and boldly confessing whatever seems true, whether it has been approved or disapproved by any council whatsoever

Council of Constance

In the name of the holy and undivided Trinity, Father and Son and holy Spirit. Amen. This holy synod of Constance, which is a general council, for the eradication of the present schism and for bringing unity and reform to God's church in head and members, legitimately assembled in the holy Spirit to the praise of almighty God, ordains, defines, decrees, discerns and declares as follows, in order that this union and reform of God's church may be obtained the more easily, securely, fruitfully and freely.

First it declares that, legitimately assembled in the holy Spirit, constituting a general council and representing the catholic church militant, it has power immediately from Christ; and that everyone of whatever state or dignity, even papal, is bound to obey it in those matters which pertain to the faith, the eradication of the said schism and the general reform of the said church of God in head and members.

Next, it declares that anyone of whatever condition, state or dignity, even papal, who contumaciously refuses to obey the past or future mandates, statutes, ordinances or precepts of this sacred council or of any other legitimately assembled general council, regarding the aforesaid things or matters pertaining to them, shall be subjected to well-deserved penance, unless he repents, and shall be duly punished, even by having recourse, if necessary, to other supports of the law. ......

If a pope is foreknown as damned and is evil, and is therefore a limb of the devil, he does not have authority over the faithful given to him by anyone, except perhaps by the emperor was a proposition of Wyclif which was condemned at the Council of Constance

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Consistory Allocution of 2 June 1944, "The mandate Confided to Peter", Pope Pius XII stated:

Mother Church, Catholic, Roman, which has remained faithful to the constitution received from her divine Founder, which still stands firm today on the solidity of the rock on which His will erected her, possesses in the primacy of Peter and of his legitimate successors, the assurance, guaranteed by the divine promises, of keeping and transmitting inviolate and in all its integrity through the centuries and millennia to the very end of time the entire sum of truth and grace contained in the redemptive mission of Christ.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Pope Pius IX: Quanta Cura

1) "We cannot pass over in silence the audacity of those who, not enduring sound doctrine, contend that 'without sin and without any sacrifice of the Catholic profession assent and obedience may be refused to those judgments and decrees of the Apostolic See, whose object is declared to concern the Church's general good and her rights and discipline, so only it does not touch the dogmata of faith and morals.' But no one can be found not clearly and distinctly to see and understand how grievously this is opposed to the Catholic dogma of the full power given from God by Christ our Lord Himself to the Roman Pontiff of feeding, ruling and guiding the Universal Church."

Pope Paul VI: Excerpts from an Allocution to a Consistory on Loyalty to the Church and to the Council, 24, May 1976: AAS 68 (1976) 369-378; Not 12 (1976) 217-223

We must attach to this refusal to respect the liturgical norms laid down a special grievousness in that it introduces division where Christ's love has gathered us together in unity, namely, into the liturgy and the eucharistic sacrifice. For our part, in the name of tradition, we beseech all of our children to celebrate the rites of the restored liturgy with dignity and fervent devotion. Use of the old Ordo Missae is in no way left to the choice of priests or people. The Instruction of 14 June 1971 provided the celebration of Mass according to the former rite would be permitted, by faculty from the Ordinary, only for aged or sick priests offering the sacrifice without a congregation. The new Ordo Missae was promulgated in place of the old after careful deliberation and to carry out the directives of Vatican Council II. For a like reason, our predecessor St. Pius V, after the Council of Trent, commanded the use of the Roman Missal revised by his authority.

In virtue of the supreme authority granted to us by Jesus Christ we command the same ready obedience to the other laws, relating to liturgy, discipline, pastoral activity, made in these last years to put into effect the decrees of the Council. Any course of action seeking to stand in the way of the conciliar decrees can under no consideration be regarded as a work done for the advantage of the Church, since it in fact does the Church serious harm. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Trent ....Canon 7. If anyone says that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs which the Catholic Church uses in the celebration of masses, are incentives to impiety rather than stimulants to piety,let him be anathema

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=

POPE LEO XIII.... SAPIENTIAE CHRISTIANAE

In defining the limits of the obedience owed to the pastors of souls, but most of all to the authority of the Roman Pontiff, it must not be supposed that it is only to be yielded in relation to dogmas of which the obstinate denial cannot be disjoined from the crime of heresy.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Martin Luther, "These church laws hold good only so long as they are not injurious to Christianity and the laws of God. Therefore, if the Pope deserves punishment, these laws cease to bind us, since Christendom would suffer."

Marcel Lefebvre, "In the Church there is no law or jurisdiction which can impose on a Christian a diminution of his faith. All the faithful can and should resist whatever interferes with their faith.... If they are forced with an order putting their faith in danger of corruption, there is an overriding duty to disobey."

===================================

Council of Trent....DECREE ON THE SACRAMENTS

CANON XIII.-If any one saith, that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, wont to be used in the solemn administration of the sacraments, may be contemned, or without sin be omitted at pleasure by the ministers, or be changed, by every pastor of the churches, into other new ones; let him be anathema.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

*Ok, I'm done, for now. I could roll-out SCORES of such quotes - as those I have pinged can attest - but the simple truth is those who are delusional are not capable of being corrected by facts.

The sad reality is the sspx are psychopathological protestants in Fiddlebacks. Inviting them back en masse into the Body of the Church is guaranteed to cause additional turmoil, enmity and strife. The Christian Church has turned around and has greatly benefited from the exchange of soi disant trads for the converts from Bible-believing, Bible-knowledgeable, Christ-loving Christians.

Outside of Free Republic nine Christians know about the deracinated, decaying, dying, hysterical, heterical, cult of lefevbre and eight of those don't care one way or the other. The cult of lefevbre has experienced their own schims within their schism and they have their own Daughters of Trent to deal with.

In America, where many Christians have been denatured of virile Christianity, due to the malign influence of feminislm and liberalism and secularism, it has become, for some, a blasphemous temptation too difficult to resist, and so they praise a schism. That, in practice, is THE farthest thing from Tradition. Here is how a REAL Trad speaks about schism

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Philadelphians Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, which is at Philadelphia, in Asia, which has obtained mercy, and is established in the harmony of God, and rejoiceth unceasingly in the passion of our Lord, and is filled with all mercy through his resurrection; which I salute in the blood of Jesus Christ, who is our eternal and enduring joy, especially if [men] are in unity with the bishop, the presbyters, and the deacons, who have been appointed according to the mind of Jesus Christ, whom He has established in security, after His own will, and by His Holy Spirit.

CHAPTER I.--PRAISE OF THE BISHOP.

Which bishop, I know, obtained the ministry which pertains to the common [weal], not of himself, neither by men, nor through vainglory, but by the love of God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ; at whose meekness I am struck with admiration, and who by his silence is able to accomplish more than those who vainly talk. For he is in harmony with the commandments [of God], even as the harp is with its strings. Wherefore my soul declares his mind towards God a happy one, knowing it to be virtuous and perfect, and that his stability as well as freedom from all anger is after the example of the infinite meekness of the living God.

CHAPTER II.--MAINTAIN UNION WITH THE BISHOP.

Wherefore, as children of light and truth, flee from division and wicked doctrines; but where the shepherd is, there do ye as sheep follow. For there are many wolves that appear worthy of credit, who, by means of a pernicious pleasure, carry captives those that are running towards God; but in your unity they shall have no place.

CHAPTER III.--AVOID SCHISMATICS.

Keep yourselves from those evil plants which Jesus Christ does not tend, because they are not the planting of the Father. Not that I have found any division among you, but exceeding purity. For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of repentance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren. If any man follows him that makes a schism in the Church, he shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

64 posted on 06/26/2006 7:37:21 AM PDT by bornacatholic
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To: Piers-the-Ploughman; sittnick; ninenot; bornacatholic; Convert from ECUSA
What His Holiness John Paul the Great, of happy memory, said of SSPX and its love slaves was that Marcel Lefebvre, Fellay, Williamson, and tbe other SSPX miscreants and ecclesiastical criminals were and are excommunicated schismatics (Ecclesia Dei, 1988). He said this in his exercise of the power of the keys.

No rumor, even a rumor on FR, and no bureacrat, even a Vatican bureaucrat, is of higher authority than a pope or than John Paul the Great's Ecclesia Dei. If Benedict XVI or any of his successors ever decide to lift John Paul the Great's formal excommunications and the declaration of schism, he may do so since each has or would have the same authority as JP II and the same keys. After all, SSPX might substantively submit to legitimate authority, reject its own history and anti-Catholic practices, its leaders and adherents might publicly repent their individual sins against the Church, against Christ's Vicar on Earth and (by an application analogous to the legal doctrine of respondeat superior) therefore against Jesus Chirst Himself.

In holding his excommunicated schismatic self forward as a Roman Catholic when he is a specifically excommunicated priest who, quite obviously by his pretense to being a licit bishop of the RCC, Fellay heretically rejects the papal authority of the keys that was exercised against illicitly consecrated Fellay and against illicit consecrator Marcel and against the rest of the illicitly consecrated Econe bishops and their illicitly consecrated successors. Theirs is an SSPX conspiracy in grand theft ecclesiastical.

Mindless "charity": "Charles Manson, it is true that some would uncharitably accuse you or Jeffrey Dahlmer or Hitler or Stalin of being what is called "evil." Of course the accusers just misunderstand you or may actually be rejecting the virtue of charity." Of course, even Manson did not purport to illicitly consecrate bishops or to be Catholic.

89 posted on 06/27/2006 9:15:19 AM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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