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To: Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; xzins; P-Marlowe; FJ290; XeniaSt; topcat54; 1000 silverlings; DouglasKC
*sigh* We've been through this before, but sure, I'll say it again: If the Spirit writes the Torah in our hearts, the Torah is still to be followed.

Yeshua says, "Think not that I am come to destroy the Torah, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Torah, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Mat. 5:17-19)

Sha'ul says, "Do we then make void the Torah through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the Torah. . . What shall we say then? Is the Torah sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the Torah . . . Wherefore the Torah is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. . . For we know that the Torah is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin." (Rom. 3:31, 7:7, 12, & 14)

He also says, "All scripture (which includes the Torah) is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." (2 Tim. 3:16)

The original Jerusalem Ekklesia say, "Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the Torah." (Acts 21:20)

Ya'akov (James) says, "For whosoever shall keep the whole Torah, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." (Jas. 2:10)

And Yochanan (John) says, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the Torah: for sin is the transgression of the Torah." (I Jn. 3:4)

Funny, they don't seem to think the Torah has been superceded by the Gospel in such a way that it should no longer be kept. What they do say is that salvation is by grace received by faith rather than of works (Rom. 4, Eph. 2:8-9), that the Torah could bring no one to perfection (Heb. 7:19), however, this was not due to a flaw in the Torah, for, "Wherefore the Torah is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good," and, "the Torah is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin"--that is, the flaw is not in the Torah of the Spirit, which defines sin, but in ourselves. Thus, "the Torah worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression" (Rom. 4:15).

Since we are flawed and therefore justly condemned by the Law of the Torah, which pronounces a curse upon all who do not keep it perfectly (Deu. 27:36), God acted in grace--unmerited favor--in sending His Son to take all of the curses that you and I justly deserve upon Himself (Gal. 3:13). Since a law is not a law unless it comes with the threat of punishment, we are no longer "under the Law," to use Sha'ul phrase--that is, we are no longer under the curses of the Torah, and therefore it is no longer a Law to us. Rather, it is now the teachings of God.

Torah does not really mean "law," though nomos is how it was translated into Greek in the LXX, which carried over to the NT. This is not to say that it does not contain the Law, but it is more than that. Torah comes from the Hebrew verb yarah, which literally means, "to hit the mark." Conversely, the Hebrew word for sin is chattah, which means "to miss the mark." Ergo, the Torah teaches us what the mark of God's perfection is and what sin is (Rom. 7:7), and to sin literally means "to fall short of the Torah."

"What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid!" (Rom. 6:15). Therefore, though we are under grace, we should still strive to keep the Torah, not out of fear of punishment, for our punishment has all fallen on Yeshua, but because

If ye love me, keep My commandments. . . He that hath My commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him. (John 14:15-21)
and
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous. (I Jn. 5:3)

Therefore thou shalt love YHVH thy God, and keep His charge, and His statutes, and His judgments, and His commandments, always. (Deu. 11:1)

What are Yeshua's commandments? To keep the Torah to its highest degree by loving God above all else and loving our neighbor as ourselves (Mat. 5:17-19 & 22:36-40). To paraphrase Rabbi Hillel, "That is the whole of Torah; the rest is commentary. Go and learn it." That is to say, every command in the Torah tells us how to go about loving God and loving our neighbor.

Every command in the Torah also points us to Yeshua HaMashiach, either by telling us His character, or by giving foreshadows of His two Comings. "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Messiah" (Col. 2:16-17). Note Sha'ul's present tense; he is not speaking of the Feastdays as a thing of the past, but as something which continues to be "a shadow of things to come." Thus he commands the Corinthians, "Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Messiah our Passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth" (1 Co. 5:7-8).

There is absolutely zero disagreement between the Gospel and the Torah. To say that there is is to commit a form of practical Marconianism: It pits Yeshua, the Living Word of God, against the Torah, the Written Word of God.

540 posted on 06/19/2006 2:26:11 PM PDT by Buggman (L'chaim b'Yeshua HaMashiach!)
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To: Buggman; Dr. Eckleburg

I have no intention of keeping the OT law. I am dead to the law by the body of Christ.

Any righteousness I have will be the imputed righteousness of Christ.

This is my conclusion on these things after many years, and I believe it will be yours after many years.

Nothing, however, says you cannot live by that code if you wish.


541 posted on 06/19/2006 2:34:09 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It. Supporting our Troops Means Praying for them to Win!)
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To: Buggman
There is absolutely zero disagreement between the Gospel and the Torah. To say that there is is to commit a form of practical Marconianism: It pits Yeshua, the Living Word of God, against the Torah, the Written Word of God.

What do you do with this verse from Scripture?

"For the law was given by Moses; grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." St. John 1:17

According to Scripture, his followers didn't know the law.

"The Pharisees therefore answered them: Are you also seduced?

Hath any one of the rulers believed in him, or of the Pharisees?

But this multitude, that knoweth not the law, are accursed." St. John 7:47-49

What do you do with sections of the law that Jesus obviously abolished, such as divorce, that were granted under Mosaic law?

St. Paul said, "Be it known therefore to you, men, brethren, that through him forgiveness of sins is preached to you: and from all the things, from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses."

If the law of Moses does nothing for justification, why practice it?

Please don't misunderstand me, I believe the OT isn't to be abolished or disregarded because in it is the story of Creation, Original Sin, the prophets, the Ten Commandments and the foretelling of our Lord Jesus Christ. I just think that it's obvious that we are no longer under Mosaic law.

That said, I have problems with some Protestants that I have spoken to that seem to think we aren't required to keep the Ten Commandments anymore. I personally don't know how they can justify that when Jesus repeated them to the rich young man to follow.

543 posted on 06/19/2006 3:14:16 PM PDT by FJ290
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