Posted on 06/11/2006 4:21:52 PM PDT by DouglasKC
A drunken driver loses control of his car and careens headfirst into a van, killing a family. A mother dies of breast cancer, leaving confused children and a grieving husband. An infant boy succumbs to a birth defect. A gentle, elderly lady dies quietly in her sleep. A desperate, depressed teenager commits suicide.
Maybe death would be different if it were predictable or consistent. But death can be so capricious. It hardly seems fair.
To us life is precious. But death is everywhere! We don't want to die. We don't want to see our loved ones die.
Self-preservation is a powerful instinct. We design special diets and exercise programs to keep us young and fit. Through medical science we seek to isolate the gene that makes us age, hoping somehow to eliminate death. A few have even arranged for their bodies to be preserved cryogenically in the hope that they can be brought back to life when the cure for what killed them is finally discovered.
Yet, for all our efforts, hopes and wishes, death is the one thing in life that remains certain. Whether through old age, illness, accident or violence, whether we are rich, poor, male or female, no matter if we're good or bad, all of us regardless of race or creed-die.
Scientists cannot tell us what happens after death. Too many aspects of life itself are intangible-too elusive to measure and record. Philosophers disagree on death and the afterlife.
Religions also disagree. Traditional Christian denominations generally teach that the souls of the dead live on in a place or condition of heaven or hell. Many non-Christians believe in the transmigration or reincarnation of souls at death. Still others believe the dead will never live again, that this life is all there is.
What really happens at death? Why do we even have to die? Can we know if there is life beyond the grave? Where can we go for meaningful, believable answers?
Only the Creator of life can reveal its purpose and the state of the dead. By looking into the Word of God for answers to our questions about death, we can learn a great deal about both life and death.
Join us now for a look at what God, our Creator, says about life and death in His inspired Word, the Bible. You may be both surprised and challenged by what you learn.
Unquenchable: impossible to quench) "unquenchable thirst"
Quench: snuff out, blow out, extinguish, put out, as of fires, flames, or lights; "Too big to be extinguished at once, the forest fires at best could be contained"; "quench the flames"; "snuff out the candles"
Just because something is unquenchable doesn't mean that its eternal. A forest fire can't be quenched. It can only be controlled and the fuel removed until it burns itself out.
Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Luk 3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
It can't be much clearer. The fate of the wicked is to be burned up, because:
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Death versus eternal life. Not eternal life versus eternal life.
It's not a very good idea to try to reason your way to correct theology based on an emotional appeal.
The blessed in heaven see things as God sees them. They will have the same sorrow at seeing damned souls in hell that God has. However, that sorrow is tempered by the certain knowledge that those souls freely chose their fate, and God simply respected their choice.
Isaiah 1:18.....sorry old friend, I couldn't resist!
The blessed in heaven see things as God sees them.
Who are these folks...."blessed in heaven"?
They will have the same sorrow at seeing damned souls in hell that God has. However, that sorrow is tempered by the certain knowledge that those souls freely chose their fate, and God simply respected their choice.
I cannot find reference to this in my Bible. I know this is a tradition of your Church....and I respect you for your beliefs....but they are not mine.
Get me my worm. The one that doesn't die, that is. Don't bother bubble-wrapping it, because clearly, it won't die.
Now until I have that worm, I'm going to be the consistent one, see, and figure that Christ was talking past a mere burning garbage dump. Otherwise, see, I'm going to figure you owe me one worm-that-does-not-die.
This is simple, really. If Hell is a burning garbage dump, because that was what you say is the literal translation, I'm going to be the proud owner of a literal worm-that-does-not die, which you will be sending me shortly.
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
"Carcasses" are dead bodies, not alive or eternally alive bodies. Now if you think that somehow we have "worms" and that they eternally alive, then Albert Barnes Notes on the bible says:
For their worm shall not die - This image is evidently taken from the condition of unburied bodies, and especially on a battlefield. The Hebrew word (úåìò tôlâ‛) properly refers to the worms which are generated in such corrupting bodies (see Exo_16:20; the notes at Isa_14:11). It is sometimes applied to the worm from which the crimson or deep scarlet color was obtained (the notes at Isa_1:18); but it more properly denotes that which is produced in putrid substances. This entire passage is applied by the Saviour to future punishment; and is the fearful image which he employs to denote the final suffering of the wicked in hell.
Your kids fight over your stuff.
I know this question wasn't addressed to me. However, I just can't refrain from asking. Do you accept them all, and if so, how could you possible accept positions which contradict each other?
You pile your friends up in a minivan, and let's posit that you have asked them all which way it is to Chicago, and let's further posit that find that you have seven different friends telling you that Chicago is in seven different directions, one opinion for each friend. You are saying that that's all well and good, that you'd listen to them all, and still get to Chicago?
Very enlightening. I like the ideas of a more merciful God and Scripture seems to support it. What about animals?
I plan to meditate on this some. I always took the book of Revelation a bit differently - did not think about the Judgement "Process", but more like, if you weren't saved during your natural life, you weren't gonna be in the Book of Life and were basically hosed. I like the second chance option - it also explains the mercy of God towards childrena and aborted babies - as well as those who were basically decent people but their churches (like Catholic for instance) never taught the salvation doctrine explicitly. Again - will have to study this some more. Thanks for the post!
Christ meant that anything thrown into this valley (Gehenna) would completely burn up before the fire could burn itself out. This condition would best be described as "unquenchable".(See post #41) Evidently during the millennium this fire will be continuously burning also according to the reference in Isaiah 66:22-24. As you can see in this scripture the Lord is speaking of the end times.
The phrase "worm dies not" simply means that some bodies thrown into the valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) did not burn, becoming literally stuck on ledges without falling into the fire. [Ecclesiastes 3:20] In other words, two possible things could happen to these bodies. (1)Fall into the fire and burn up, or (2) get stuck on a ledge and be consumed by maggots (worms).
As I said in an earlier post, this valley, Gehenna, had been in use for centuries by the Israelites and its history was well known to the first century populace because it was still used as a garbage disposal area for the City of Jerusalem. Earlier it had a more sinister use.
If it is your belief that we are talking about immortal worms here.....keep waiting for FED EX. If you possess a Bible dictionary I would suggest you look up the word "Gehenna"....as that is the word translated "Hell" in this passage [Mark 9:43-48]. The confusion stems from the fact that Gehenna was, in a way like Hades (grave), a resting place for dead bodies....not an ever burning hell fire as mainstream Christianity would like you to believe.
"Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!" --Jesus Christ.
Those who would offer for sale the false concept of a non-eternal Hell simply want to believe in such a concept since it's easier. But it isn't the truth.
To believe this means you have to throw out this:
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
What Christ was referring to (and the only way to reconcile scripture) was those who find the way to life during their lifetimes and not during the resurrection. This is a relatively small number who follow the narrow path and are referred to as the "elect" in the bible.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Not all will repent, but it is God's wish, his will, that we do.
Actually, he was talking about a place of fire where the damned exist for all eternity.
If it is your belief that we are talking about immortal worms here...
Death in Hell for all eternity, that's what I believe Christ is talking about. With the fire.
The confusion stems from the fact that Gehenna was, in a way like Hades (grave), a resting place for dead bodies....not an ever burning hell fire as mainstream Christianity would like you to believe.
Wrong. It is actually a burning, eternal Hell. How do you account for Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16?
There was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen; and feasted sumptuously every day. And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores, Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table, and no one did give him; moreover the dogs came, and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell. And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom: And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented.
Here is a serious question, though I may not be phrasing it well- What happens before we are born? In considering life after death, should we also consider if there is life before birth?
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
I would not have to throw those out, no. If so, I could simply turn and say to you that you must throw out the words of Christ when He said that there are few who are saved. Obviously a few among many added up over time amount to a rather large crowd. The claim that I admit that a greater percentage of the population are saved because of a large crowd of successful souls make it to Heaven when the final curtain drops is mere sophistry.
What Christ was referring to (and the only way to reconcile scripture) was those who find the way to life during their lifetimes and not during the resurrection. This is a relatively small number who follow the narrow path and are referred to as the "elect" in the bible.
It wouldn't be the only way, as I have put forth another very, very simple explanation above, which makes plenty enough sense.
Not all will repent, but it is God's wish, his will, that we do.
Of course.
I don't think there is a life before birth. We have physical life, not eternal life. We have eternal life when God gives us the gift of eternal life through Christ:
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Thanks for posting this.
Allow me to ask what your position is on this matter, that is, whether Hell has fire and whether it is an eternal state for those who fall into it. Your FR homepage states the following:
"My husband and I are both staunch Catholics, Conservatives & Pro-Life."
Certainly it is the case that the Catholic Church has always taught that Hell was eternal, complete with unquenchable fire.
This is correct, is it not?
This is anti Biblical doctrine not supported by any scripture you may provide.
Death in Hell for all eternity, that's what I believe Christ is talking about. With the fire.
Main stream Christianity does teach this. They are wrong.
Wrong. It is actually a burning, eternal Hell. How do you account for Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16?
The Buddhists (and others) teach the Spirit is eternal and finds a final resting when man reconciles him to his Father.
I thnk Jesus, as King and Priest of Israel, being born Prince of the House of Judah, heir to Throne of David and High Priest of the Temple, for which he was crucified, taught much the same.
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