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To: Kolokotronis
"We have an actual description of what was going on in those early liturgies from +Ignatius of Antioch, a disciple of the Apostle +John, the successor but one to +Peter as bishop of Antioch. Indeed there is a tradition that he was the child who sat on Christ's lap. At any rate, his Eucharistic theology, from the late 1st, very early 2nd century, makes it clear that the Eucharist occurs only within The Church which is found in its fullness where the bishop is, surrounded by his clergy and laity and centered on the Eucharist. That is where Christ is and thus the Eucharist of The Church is truly the Body and Blood of Christ. He also makes it clear that the bishops are the successors of the Apostles and that they must be obeyed."
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Why is his Eucharistic theology more powerful than SCRIPTURE?

BTW, that's a pretty neat story that he was the child on JESUS'S lap. Is there any real evidence of this, or is it another story that has been passed on orally.
154 posted on 06/10/2006 12:08:00 PM PDT by wmfights (Lead, Follow, or Get Out Of The WAY!)
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To: wmfights
Ignatius of Antioch:

Also called Theophorus (ho Theophoros); born in Syria, around the year 50; died at Rome between 98 and 117.

More than one of the earliest ecclesiastical writers have given credence, though apparently without good reason, to the legend that Ignatius was the child whom the Savior took up in His arms, as described in Mark 9:35. It is also believed, and with great probability, that, with his friend Polycarp, he was among the auditors of the Apostle St. John. If we include St. Peter, Ignatius was the third Bishop of Antioch and the immediate successor of Evodius (Eusebius, "Hist. Eccl.", II, iii, 22). Theodoret ("Dial. Immutab.", I, iv, 33a, Paris, 1642) is the authority for the statement that St. Peter appointed Ignatius to the See of Antioch. St. John Chrysostom lays special emphasis on the honor conferred upon the martyr in receiving his episcopal consecration at the hands of the Apostles themselves ("Hom. in St. Ig.", IV. 587). Natalis Alexander quotes Theodoret to the same effect (III, xii, art. xvi, p. 53).

Have being the child in Jesus lap would have been a really neat trick since according the Catholic Encylopedia he was born 20 years after Jesus died.

158 posted on 06/10/2006 12:24:04 PM PDT by tenn2005 (Birth is merely an event; it is the path walked that becomes one's life.)
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To: wmfights; Petrosius

" Why is his Eucharistic theology more powerful than SCRIPTURE?"

As has been discussed ad nauseam on other threads, the canon of the NT was not fixed until the late 4th century and it was fixed by The Church. In other words, the NT is a product of The Church and not the other way round. The Eucharistic theology of +Ignatius of Antioch expresses the belief of The Church in the earliest days and its belief today as to the Eucharist, Apostolic Succession and in fact its ecclesiology. It expresses the faith of The Church at the time The Church determined what was "in" and what wasn't in the canon. The canon of the NT which you use, with some deletions of works which Luther found "inconvenient" to his rebellion, is a product of The Church (interestingly, the OT you use, the so called Hebrew canon, didn't even exist when Christ preached. The "scriptures" refered to in the NT are the LXX). It never ceases to amaze me how so many Protestants have what appears to be a thoroughly heretical, Mohammaden view of scripture, namely that God in some fashion dictated the NT or the OT word for word and that they, rather than The Church, were given the power to correctly interpret it without reference to what The Church always and everywhere believed. No wonder the likes of that heresiarch Griswold, the "Presiding Bishop" of ECUSA talks about "pluriform truths".

"BTW, that's a pretty neat story that he was the child on JESUS'S lap. Is there any real evidence of this, or is it another story that has been passed on orally."

I doubt there is any evidence as such. So far as I know its a story which has been repeated throughout the centuries. Maybe its true, maybe it isn't. It is a neat story though.


161 posted on 06/10/2006 12:57:12 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: wmfights; Kolokotronis
Why is his Eucharistic theology more powerful than SCRIPTURE?

And who said that St. Ignatius' Eucharistic theology is more powerful than Scripture? Kolokotronis and I hold the St. Ignatius is in complete harmony with Scripture. You are assuming a contradiction without proving it.

166 posted on 06/10/2006 2:08:09 PM PDT by Petrosius
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