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To: Petrosius

"And when we commanded "Do this for a commemoration of me" he empowered the priest to repeat this action so that every time Mass is said the bread and wine presented at the altar becomes the actual Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, which we are invited to receive in Holy Communion. This is the center of Catholic worship and this is what is not available to you as a non-Catholic."

A question for you. You note that Christ "empowered the priest to repeat this action". I have remarked before on other threads that the epiklesis has virtually disappeared from the Latin Rite Liturgy. Is this because it is believed that the consecration takes place by virtue of the priest's powers received at Ordination? In Orthodoxy the priest prays at the consecration:


"Priest (in a low voice):
Once again we offer to You this spiritual worship without the shedding of blood, and we ask, pray, and entreat You: send down Your Holy Spirit upon us and upon these gifts here presented.

And make this bread the precious Body of Your Christ.

(He blesses the holy Bread.)

Deacon (in a low voice):
Amen.

Priest (in a low voice):
And that which is in this cup the precious Blood of Your Christ.

(He blesses the holy Cup.)

Deacon (in a low voice):
Amen.

Priest (in a low voice):
Changing them by Your Holy Spirit.

(He blesses them both.)

Deacon (in a low voice):
Amen. Amen. Amen.

Priest (in a low voice):
So that they may be to those who partake of them for vigilance of soul, forgiveness of sins, communion of Your Holy Spirit, fulfillment of the kingdom of heaven, confidence before You, and not in judgment or condemnation. Again, we offer this spiritual worship for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every righteous spirit made perfect in faith."

Plainly in the Divine Liturgy the priest prays that the Holy Spirit effect the change.

Am I seeing a difference which in fact does not exist?


142 posted on 06/09/2006 6:41:12 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis
It is the Catholic understanding that the bread and wine are changed into Body and Blood of Christ by following our Lord's command "Do this for a commemoration of me", that is by repeating his action of taking bread and wine and saying the words "This is my Body" and "This is my Blood." Notice that our Lord did not command that we invoke the Holy Spirit in order to accomplish this. This was the common teaching of the Latin Fathers. This can also be found among the Greek Fathers. St. John Chrysostom states:
The priest stands there and sets up the outward sign, while speaking these words; but the power and the grace are of God. "This is my Body," he says. These words transmute the gifts.
(De proditione Judae hom. 1, 6
Along with this we have the testimony of the liturgical tradition held by the West. This being said, however, we must remember that although we attribute various actions to the three persons of the Blessed Trinity that they all cooperate in actions ad extra, thus the consecration is the work of the single Godhead. And so we have in the Roman Canon the following prayer:
Quam oblationem tu, Deus, in omnibus, quæsumus benedictam, adscriptam, ratam, rationabilem, acceptabilemque facere digneris: ut nobis Corpus, et Sanguis fiat dilectissimi Filii tui Domini nostri Jesu Christi.

Which oblation do Thou, O God, vouchsafe in all things to make blessed, approved, and acceptable, that it may become for us the Body and Blood of Thy most beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Thus there is an epiclesis/invocation in the Roman Canon, though it is addressed to God as a whole and not just to the Holy Spirit. At Florence the Greeks maintained that Transubstantiation did not occur in the Roman Mass until the following prayer in the Canon:
Supplices te rogamus, omnipotens Deus: jube hæc perferri per manus sancti Angeli tui in sublime altare tuum, in comspectu divinæ majestatis tuæ: ut quotquot ex hac altaris participatione sacrosanctum Filii tui Corpus et Sanguinem sumpserimus omni benedictione cælesti et gratia repleamur. Per Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen.

We most humbly beseech Thee, Almighty God, to command that these offering be born by the hands of Thy holy Angel to Thine altar on high in the sight of Thy Divine Majesty, that as many of us as at this altar shall partake of and receive the most holy Body and Blood of Thy Son, may be filled with every heavenly blessing and grace. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.


143 posted on 06/09/2006 8:50:46 PM PDT by Petrosius
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To: Kolokotronis
This is the center of Catholic worship and this is what is not available to you as a non-Catholic."

As Christians we celebrate the Lord's Supper on the first day of every week just as the Christians did in the first century (Acts 20:7), and like them we do not need a priest to make it possible. We have Jesus as our High Priest who is ever at our disposal. Having Jesus, why whould we need some self-appointed man with his shirt on backward to intervene in our behalf.

Please provide a scripture that says that there must be a Priest involved in order to celebrate the Lord's Supper.

146 posted on 06/09/2006 10:25:41 PM PDT by tenn2005 (Birth is merely an event; it is the path walked that becomes one's life.)
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