Posted on 06/06/2006 11:58:40 AM PDT by dukeman
A Debate between
William Lane Craig and Bart D. Ehrman
On March 28, 2006, Dr. Craig, Research Professor of Philosophy at Talbot School of Theology in La Mirada, California, and Dr. Ehrman, James A. Gray Distinguished Professor and Chair of the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, debated the status of the Christian claim to Jesus' resurrection from the perspective of historical data. The debate was sponsored by the Center for Religion, Ethics and Culture and the Campus Christian Fellowship.
Hi again. Summer is here, it's expected to be 101 here in Austin! I imagine San Antonio is about the same.
I know that cause and effect are the only tools I have to examine the truth of things.
I know that around me, people still claim to be the Son of God and even stranger, and that I do not believe them. So I would need some pretty strong evidence to believe that Jesus was in fact the Son of God.
And there is none.
I'd love to take this step by step. I'm kinda busy, so if I'm slow in responding please forgive me!
Based on the principles discussed above, your dismissal of Josephus’ Testimonium about Jesus as “not evidence” is simply not good historical practice.
You're just incorrect there.
I'm quite heavily into history. The fact that somebody 30 years later wrote about what other people were telling him *is* evidence that people were telling the story. It is *not* evidence that the story was correct. Likewise, you mention Tacitus. Who was born 20+ years after the events in question. So when he writes about them, it is again repeating stories others have told him.
In fact, all the ancient histories like that contain inaccurate stories and rumors. Have you ever read Herodotus?
I'm afraid you're just mistaken about this point. People who wrote decades later are repeating the stories of Jesus they have heard from true believers. Well, what would David Koresh's followers tell you?
A 'contemporary' account by someone *at the time the events happened* would be the first thing that would be required. And even that wouldn't rule out fraud or error . . . which are still more likely explanations than 'miracles'.
Remember, we're talking about something unprecedented in human experience. So it is the least likely explanation possible.
Why would you assume I won't let myself be lifted?
Spiritually, I believe I'm on quite solid ground. I believe in most of the teachings attributed to Jesus, in fact. I believe he likely existed, and he was likely a wise person. I understand why folks would choose to follow his teachings. It's just historically that I disagree with ya'll.
I don't believe he was the son of god. Because others today claim the same, and I don't believe them either. People today claim to work miracles. I don't believe them either. I suspect fraud or coincidence when some 'faith healer' cures someone's cancer.
I'm just applying the same logic and reasoning to the historical stories.
Of course some people still struggle with the presupposition that physical reality is three spatial dimensions evolving over time. But relativity has made it clear that space/time is a continuum, time is geometric.
Moreover, another form of causation is "if not for A then C would not be". If not for time, events (such as physical causation) would not occur. If not for space, corporeals would not exist.
All physical cosmologies - whether inflationary model, cyclic, ekpyrotic, brane, imaginary time, multi verse, multi world and so on - all of them, rely on geometry for physical causation.
Therefore there is always a beginning - an uncaused cause - in the void of no space, no time, no energy, no matter, etc. Which is to say there was a beginning of physical causation and the only possible uncaused cause is God.
And there is none.
Yes, yes, all that is true -- but are you claiming that education is useless in helping people understand the ways of the world? Are you claiming that people today on average don't understand the basic workings of this world better than they use to?
If today someone had given a man a drug that puts him in a sleep so deep it looked like death then declared him dead, how many today would think it was a miracle if he woke up?
Some, surely -- but not most (I would hope!).
My point is education makes people less likely to think simple science is a 'miracle'. In the past, people were apt to write down every unusual event to a 'miracle'.
And you are arguing that education does *not* help???
I'm sorry, I just can't agree with that point.
No I'm positing that skill(education) is needed by humans..
But wisdom should be the bar sought after.. I thought I said that..
What is wisdom anyway?.. More important question than "what makes this or that work"..
The Difference between a Tinkerer.. and Sage.. even though a Sage might appreciate a good Cabernet and/or a hot tub.. maintained by a tinkerer.. or a tinkerer the wise counsel of the Sage.. The metaphorical difference between the two is immense.. Thats what I thought I said or implied..
I've known rich people that were poor and poor people that were rich.. and tinkerers that were Sages and Sages that were tinkerers... i.e. Scientist/Engineer = tinkerer.. Sage = possessor of wisdom..
LoL.. that is the point isn't it..
Jesus is either who he said he was, AND STILL IS...
Or wasn't and still Isn't..
Much more important/primary than "What is a tacyon"...
Possibly 10% of Jews could read in those days. The percentage in 16th century Europe was marginally higher and is not much higher is large areas of the world today. Many, many people today depend on visual means to get their information. Tabloid journalism gives a good idea of the level of literacy, ditto the sort of music that is popular. In this age, as in all others, substantive knowledge is in the hands of the elite. If I must name any institution whose members are, all inall, heads and shoulders above those fifty years ago, I would make it the armed services. The NCOs and their Lts who head rifle squads in the 4th ID. are close to being on par with their counterparts in the 101st Airborne who jumped in 1944 and low casualties keep them from, being degraded by replacements.
I'm sorry, I think we've run rather far afield of the original point, then.
The point being, people 2000 years ago were even more easily fooled by hucksters claiming to have miraculous powers than people today. Because we are, on average, more educated.
And since I see that people today still are amazingly easy to fool (David Koresh, Jim Jones, etc), then the odds are that back then, people were even easier to fool.
So I'd say it is wisdom to take any such claims with a grain of salt.
All true, and yet beside the core point, which is that people today are sometimes easily fooled by shysters like David Koresh and Jim Jones.
And that people back 2000 years ago would have been even easier to fool.
For what I believe are obvious reasons of education.
LOLOL! Thank you so much for your insights!
I'm afraid that I wouldn't trust any 'internal' thing like that, based on evidence from my personal experience.
In other words, David Koresh thought god was speaking to him. His followers believed god was speaking to them.
The muslim nutjobs believe god is telling them to kill innocents.
Our brains are funny things. I observe that our brain will fool us. Just because we "feel" something is true does not make it true.
Wasn't there a story last week about a fellow who got into a lion's pit and said god would protect him?
I never trust internal, subjective things like that.
But, er, the Spiritual revelation that Jesus Christ is Lord is neither "internal" nor "subjective". The ones you have mentioned went over the deep end precisely because they were listening to themselves and not to Him.
Nevertheless, you begin with a willful presumption that precludes ever meeting Christ. So that's "all she wrote".
In other words let go of the logic and reasoning capablilities you've been created with and take it by "faith"......been there, done that for 30 years, bought the t-shirt. Doesn't work.
Your statement is fascinating - because (at least as far as I can tell) it parses down to the observation that willfully chosing to believe does not work.
I would agree with that, because the "ears to hear" can only come as a gift from God. A person cannot muster the "faith" to know Him:
BS. Your ears don't hear anything differently that I do. Granted, your interpretation of what you hear is different. Its arrogant to think that has God chosen you to receive a gift and not someone else. That's what Muslims think as well.
Must hamper you're vision of the Spirit/spirit.. Does God have or need a physical body?..
As Jesus answered in Matt 29 when discussing resurrection-
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
The Law that Moses has is only for TIME and has not the full blessing afforded in eternity!
The Convenant of Jesus Christ is for all eternity so when you are reading the New Testament one needs to discern which doctrine Jesus talking about!
If he is talking to the Jew or the Gentile it is for TIME! Because when Moses had the Higher Law they refused it, and was given the Lesser Law to follow!
If he is talking about keeping the Lord Covenant than it is for all Eternity! (can be Jew or gentile who took on the Name of Jesus and Keep His Commandments....than they are as Paul called them saints)
We are not physically or spiritually created equal. Some are more intelligent than others, some more beautiful than others, some born into wealth and others into poverty, some healthy, some sickly and so on.
Abraham was chosen, Moses was chosen, David was chosen and so on. And those who were not Abraham and not Moses and not David in their day were not thrilled about it.
Truly I do not see how anyone can look at the history of the Jews and not conclude that they are chosen, specially blessed and specially pruned. How many other nations have reformed with language and religion and customs after 2 millennia of been dispersed?
Christians are likewise chosen. And for evidence I point to the same broad sweep of history, of Western civilization - its great success and its pruning.
Tell me what spiritually means to you?
You don't understand the concept of "chosen". Jews are "chosen" to bring God to the world and not to flaunt the fact that they have found favor. If you hadn't noticed its not been exactly pleasant. They've been the objects of persecution for thousands of years and still are.
Christians are likewise chosen.
Perhaps. But not for the arrogance that's on display here.
And for evidence I point to the same broad sweep of history, of Western civilization - its great success and its pruning.
Thanx to the Jews who gave them the eithical code that caused Western Civilization to thrive. To take credit for this is typical supercessionist arrogance.
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