[samiam1972]

i'm glad to hear you look at Catholic sources. Because all you sent me was anti-Catholic. I also read Scripture as well as hear it every Sunday and during the week if I choose. You haven't sent me anything that "proves" Catholicism is not based on the bible. I've sent articles that refute the silliness of Saint worship and you choose to interpret it differently, relying on other sources to back up what you want to believe.

This debate is ending like every other debate I've had. Authority. I know that when I disagree with someone about faith, I can try to prove my point using Scriptures. If we start quoting the same passages but apply different meaning to it, well, then we have a problem, don't we? This is where I can turn to the Chuch God set up here on Earth to settle these differences. Just like it says in the Bible. The gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. You go ahead and choose men's opinions over God's authority. I'll stick with the Catholic Church.

[TheBattman]

Have you ever heard the doctrine of interpreting scripture that says that scripture interprets itself?

Basically, it says that man's interpretation is not needed, because the Bible interprets itself by the context and by other revelation within it's pages.

I too rely on the Church that God implemented through his Son Jesus Christ - our difference comes from what Church we believe He set up.

Not to open up a whole different can of worms - but where did the formal liturgical church service come from? What little we have of a description of gatherings of believers (what we now call the "local church") were far less "formal" and simple. They did not use "vain repetitions", but they did focus on the need for a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Also focused on was the fact that Christ's own words as recorded in John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." No mention is made of needing a priest, intercessory prayer by the "Saints", or good works to come to the Father.

One massive disagreement I have - I believe what the Bible says - that the Blood of Christ is sufficient, and that he died ONCE for all (Hebrews 9:24-28), yet the Catechism specifically states (par. 1030): "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

Heck - Christ even told the thief on the cross adjacent to His own that even that day he would see him in the Kingdom... yet this thief had never been baptized, had never received communion, and if he was to see Christ in Heaven that very day - wasn't going to be undergoing much purification (and he certainly wasn't perfect).

This flies directly in the face of Hebrews 10:11-18....

10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. And what about this from the Catechism: Catholic Catechism, par. 1477 'This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission the Father entrusted to them. In this way they attained their own salvation and at the same time cooperated in saving their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body.' [Indulgentiarum doctrina, 5.]

Now compare that to Romans 4:2-5 and 10:9, as well as Ephesians 2:8-9.

And one more before I go to sleep -

Baptism is REQUIRED for Salvation???

Catholic Catechism, par. 1256 The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon. [Cf. CIC, can. 861 # 1; CCEO, can. 677 # 1.] In case of necessity, any person, even someone not baptized, can baptize, if he has the required intention. The intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes, and to apply the Trinitarian baptismal formula. The Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation. [Cf. 1 Timothy 2:4]

Compare this to Luke 23:39-43 Luke 23:39-43 [39] One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!" [40] But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? [41] We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." [42] Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. " [43] Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

I already made reference to this account earlier in this post....

Also Romans 10:9-

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Where's the baptism in these two statements directly from the Lord's word regarding Salvation???

Off to bed now.... have a good evening/morning...