Posted on 05/29/2006 6:28:25 AM PDT by truthfinder9
I stand by my assertion back at post 90.
When one considers Genesis in light of relativity and inflationary theory, both statements are true: God created the physical universe in a week (as seen from the inception space/time coordinates) - and also the physical universe is approximately 15 billion years old (from our space/time coordinates on earth).
I further assert that those who are stumped by the plants being created before the solar system ought to take note of Genesis 2:4-5 --- that the plants were created before they were in the earth. This also points to Genesis 1-3 dealing both with creation of the physical realm and the spiritual realm. That assertion is further supported by Genesis 2:9 and Rev 2:7. Namely, that the tree of life is in the center of the garden of Eden and Paradise, i.e. spiritual realm.
I also assert the intersection of the spiritual and physical realms - not only the types, such as the Temple and the Ark, but in appearances of Christ after the resurrection, the transfiguration, visitation of angels - and something to which we can all testify: the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (John, Romans 8, I Cor 2, etc.)
No, accurate translations read " - the first day" etc. set off from the previous days. If the writer meant 24hr days, he would have made it say so instead of setting the "day" off as period marker and using a word (yom) that has at least 3 literal meanings, including long-ages.
I repeat. We are not discussing what the text MEANS.
We're discussing what it SAYS.
What it SAYS is "days." The nature of the story told lends itself to thinking about normal old "days."
Therefore, it is not inappropriate to consider "literal days" as on of the options when looking for what the story "means."
It is possible to preserve that literal sense of "day" when one considers the relativity of time.
Excellent, sister. That's the single best explanation of this idea of yours that you have yet penned.
Definitely worthy of a devotional reflection.
Moreover, the inability to create or observe the Higgs field/boson which is required in the Standard Model has furthered the theory of additional time-like dimensions to explain even ordinary matter (5% of the critical density). Dark matter is 25% and dark energy, a whopping 70%.
One compelling theory suggests that all of the particles in this physical universe may be as little as a single particle in a 5th time-like dimension, multiply imaged 1080 times (Wesson).
Essentially there are two ways of perceiving this physical reality - either it is three spatial dimensions evolving over time as you suggest, or it is a multi-dimensional space/time continuum as Einstein said.
I agree with Einstein who, btw, dreamed of transmuting the base wood of matter to the pure marble of geometry. He also said "reality is an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."
Alamo-Girl,
Very few young-earthers would like your theory (promoted by Gerald L. Schroeder) because it still talks about billions of years (YEC Russell Humphreys came up with a similar theory, but it fails even easier).
It is an intersting theory, and I have read Schroeder's book on it, but there are some problems with his physics. His theory makes the universe and Earth 15 billion years old. The problem is that the universe has been measured (to extreme accuracy, only a 1% margin of error) at 13.7 billion years old and Earth at 4.5B.
Biblically, Genesis 1:2 establishes God and Earth's time frame as being the same.
Schroeder's theory is interesting, but ultimately it is unsupported by physics.
No, actually I made my statement assuming we live in a universe with at least 11 dimensions (string theory). Having more dimensions doesn't change time's (our time - 4th dimnesion) historic progession. All dimensions were created simultaneously at the Big Bang event, with all but four dimensions immediately thereafter "folding" into themselves. We are only bound by the time in our part of the universe's existence. The other dimensions explain the structure of the universe but mean little mankind's history.
Thank you so much for the encouragement, my dear brother in Christ!
Ideas about string theory, superstring theory, tachyons, etc., all tell us that there are incomplete ideas about time and relativity.
"I repeat. We are not discussing what the text MEANS. We're discussing what it SAYS."
You have to realize how bad that sounds! All sound exegesis is about determining what the text MEANS. People can make it SAY anything!
The opposite.
People can make it MEAN anything.
The words on the page are what they are. It SAYS only what it says.
Observation is the 1st step in exegesis. It requires absolute honesty about the data in front of us.
All science models are ultimately incomplete. Granted, we can get to many decimal places of accuracy, but there is always something more. Gravity is considered a law (and most now consider General and Special Relativity laws as well) because of what we do know, but they still are not fully complete. Never will be either.
The Hebrew doesn't SAY they were 24hr days. Reading English meaning onto ancient Hebrew is to ignore the data.
Sorry, but those who wish to read it as "age" are the ones who ignore the data.
Of some 2200 usages of "day" in scripture, some 1800 of them refer to a regular old day(s). Most of the remainder are some derivation of "day."
Roughly 8 usages of those 2200+ have to do with "age."
The nature of the story being told in Genesis 1 does not suggest other than a normal day.....evening & morning were day one...two...three....etc.
I understand from some other post that you might be some variety of theistic evolutionist. Is that correct?
Are there any theistic evolutionists who also hold to the global Noahic flood view?
I don't know if there are, but I would guess that they would not hold to a global flood.
My apologies to you, because I didn't know about this thread, so I'm not really sure who said what.
It is my understanding that the Flood covered all the earth except for 'Eretz Yisra'el, which was exempted in order to preserve the Land's unique sanctity by allowing its dead to be buried quickly afterwards.
Oh, in addition to the eight human beings in the Ark there was a ninth survivor, who clung to the outside and was fed by Noah through an aperture of some kind after he swore an oath to serve Noah's descendants. This was King `Og, the last of the Nefilim, who was killed by the Israelites under Moses. The service he performed was to tell Abraham that his nephew Lot had been taken captive (in Genesis 14). He is called in that chapter HaPalit (the escapee), referring to his escape from the battle but eluding to his escape from the Flood as well. Because of this good deed performed for Abraham Moses was afraid that King `Og would be protected by his merit (he had no such fear of facing King Sichon). G-d assured him otherwise.
It's amazing what the Torah teaches, as it were, by outlining rather than by drawing the complete picture (`Og was a Nafil, all the Nefilim were killed in the Flood, but somehow `Og survived to be killed by Moses). Then the Oral Tradition fills in the details to give a perfect picture (the connection between the giving of the Torah and the feast of Shavu`ot is similarly hinted at without ever stating it outright).
"Bible critics" are so clueless!!!
And by the same logic that any theistic evolutionist would reject a Noahic flood, they should also reject: the miracle of the loaves and fishes; Jesus walking on the water; the raising of Lazarus from the dead; the changing of water into wine; the healing of the man born blind; and all other miracles to include the resurrection of Jesus from the grave.
On the Spiritual side, it also helps our understanding of pre-destination (and prophesy) v. free-will.
Also I disagree with you that Genesis 1:2 establishes that God’s time is our time. Here is a link to the Mechanical Translation of that verse.
I also assert that the notion God is on any time is illogical per se. Regardless of cosmology – whether inflationary theory, multi-verse, multi-world, cyclic, Ekpyrotic, imaginary time – there is always a beginning because all of them rely on geometry for physical causation. God is the only possible uncaused cause of geometry and therefore, physical causation.
There is a huge difference between infinity and timelessness – much like the difference between zero and null.
And concerning the computation of elapsed time which I approximate at 15 billion years v. the 13.7 billion year measurement: we would need to adjust my approximation from "in the beginning" to the moment of the first day when God said “let there be Light”. And that is an unknown, though the physical realm evidences that it was said.
“The results were presented as plots of slight temperature variations in the CMB that graph sound waves in the dense early universe. These high-resolution ‘power spectra’ show not only a strong primary resonance but are consistent with two additional harmonics, or peaks.
“The peaks indicate harmonics in the sound waves that filled the early, dense universe. Until some 300,000 years after the Big Bang, the universe was so hot that matter and radiation were entangled in a kind of soup in which sound waves (pressure waves) could vibrate. The CMB is a relic of the moment when the universe had cooled enough so that photons could ‘decouple’ from electrons, protons, and neutrons; then atoms formed and light went on its way.”
Further, I expect the Father’s revelation in Jesus Christ, in the Holy Spirit, in Scripture and in the Creation to agree – and I have never, ever, been disappointed.
Thank you so much for sharing your insights on this subject! I am somewhat a sponge for ancient manuscripts, so a lot of what you say is familiar to me.
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