Ah, yes. The tree of knowledge...
Posted on 05/27/2006 3:14:09 PM PDT by Forgiven_Sinner
Maybe you should actually read the Bible and what Jesus says. Y'know, like in Matthew 6, "Be ye not like the hypocrites who believe their constant repetitions will be heard."
Atheists have no alter boys, no prayers, no church establishments, no tax-exemption, no record of sex scandals, no pastors, preachers, or priests, no coming-of-age rituals like Bar Mitzvah or confirmation, no holidays, no banned books or statements about heresy and blasphemy, no record of burning witches or heretics, no public displays of prayer or piety, no holy book supposed to contain "All Truth', no recited creed, no mythological 'transubstantions', no edifices with crosses.
These are attributes of organized religion, priests and preachers with an agenda to keep being supported despite doing little productive.
Maybe you are ignorant of the reason cult doctrines are not succeeding is because cults are not actually accepting the Gospel.
As for the rest, well, it depends on the denomination of atheism. Certainly communism fit many of the descriptions of an atheist faith and had many of the attributes you list.
A. If evolution is a slow process occuring over millions of years where are all the transitionary species in the fossil record?
You can make a good case for evolution within major grouping such as 'fish, 'bird', 'reptile', etc., but where are all of the 'fish in the process of becoming amphibians'and 'reptiles in the process of becoming birds', fossils?
First, evolution is a slow process, but it is not a uniform process. The human/ape split is a good example. Something like six+ million years ago the forests of Africa were shrinking and the grasslands were expanding. Apes were getting squeezed by the reduced habitat. One group of apes gradually adapted to the forest edges, then the grasslands. We are descended from that group.
They changed considerably in the ensuing six million years, as they had to adapt to new and different conditions and environments, while the groups that remained in the forests changed but little--they were already adapted to their environment.
Since evolution is a process, it would seem logical to deduce that 'pure' fish, birds, etc. ought to be mere tiny waypoints on the evolutionary spectrum, and that the fossil record ought to consist almost entirely of transitionary species.
You are entirely correct. All species are transitionals, and I don't know what a "pure" species would be. Even within a species there is considerable variation. Skin color is an example; within our species there is a large range, with most folks pretty well adapted to the area in which they live. But within each group there is a range as well. If the climate changes, some within each population are better suited than others, and tend to do better.
But because the process of evolution is generally slow, we don't really see it in most large critters. Bacteria can become resistant to antibiotics in a few decades, as they have a much shorted generation span. For the larger mammals, most look quite a bit like their parents. Where you can see some real evolution is in what are called ring species, where, as an example, a species living around a high mountain changes gradually from area to area, until the two endpoints which meet on the other side are no longer interfertile, although going in the other direction each group is interfertile with the adjacent group (google "ring species" for some fascinating reading).
B. Why aren't we seeing a lot of evolution going on right now? There doesn't seem to be any particular scientific reason why this should not be happening.
Again, you are correct. Evolution is ongoing all around us. But its real slow, and we just have too short an attention span! We look at change over decades as slow, while evolution looks at millenia and beyond for most changes.
But, we may be in the process of losing our third molars! As we have shifted from tough natural plant products to softer agricultural and processed foods, the chewing muscles have become smaller, the face and jaw have become smaller, and the teeth get less interproximal wear (wear between adjacent teeth). So, when the third molars erupt, sometimes there is not enough room and some people get serious dental problems. This is enough natural selection that those without third molars may have a tiny advantage over those with third molars worldwide. Give it 50,000 years or so and you might just see the third molars become rare.
Shouldn't we be up to our eyeballs in 'evolving' creatures? Shouldn't we be seeing all sort of creatures in various states of evolving? Yet all we see are the same old 'insects', 'fish', 'birds', 'reptiles'.
But each of these is halfway from its ancestors to its descendants! We can see many of the ancestor, but we can't tell what the descendants may look like. That's half the fun!
Aye, sure and it hath so done! For the article is dated "5/27/08 | PAUL JOHNSON". I see you figured out how to unwarp higher dimensionalia membranes. Care to share the trick?
"Tripe alert! Don't need to read any farther."
Excellent example of one of Johnson's points:"...denying a hearing to anyone who disagrees with them. " Thank you.
To repeat my point:
In the first main paragraph: Darwinian fundamentalists, and they cling to their absolutist position with all the unyielding certitude with which Southern Baptists assert the literal truth of the Book of Genesis, or Wahabi Muslims proclaim the need for a universal jihad against ‘the Great Satan’. At a revivalist meeting of Darwinians two or three years ago...Anyone who starts out using loaded language such as that can expect to lose a lot of their readers very quickly. That is not balanced writing, and it quickly exposes the authors' biases.
Those who use logic and reason, rather than invective and hyperbole, do better at convincing their adversaries.
That could be, yes. I notice he didn't even mention any of the standard ID books either. I'm thinking more of that standard anti-atheist argument that a universe that's neutral & dispassionate with respect to our fate is necessarily bleak & horrifying.
And those who fully read material that offers viewpoints opposite their own often learn something; assuming, of course, they are open to learning and not close minded.
No...it's just showing what hypocrites and phoneys they really are.
No...it's just showing what hypocrites and phoneys they really are.
Yes, and the primal serpent who discussed fruit and trees and law with Eve used those and those alone. He well understood the subtext -- the "why" would be shunted away by the emotions using "This is is just logical" as an excuse.
I agree. That is why I have read most of the creationist websites. I suspect I have read more of those websites than most creationists have read evolution websites or (horrors) scientific journals.
But bad writing is bad writing--and the article which begins this thread starts off poorly. Bad writing often foreshadows bad thinking. I tend to avoid that when I detect it.
But back to your original point. Heinlein addressed this better than I can:
Belief gets in the way of learning.Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love, 1973
I suppport evolution... but when a creationist offers links to articles that they say refute evolution, I do go there, and read what is offered, and compare it with articles of a differing opinion...I do keep an open mind...
What I have found tho, is that when a creationist is offered links to explain something, more often than not, they give up excuses, such as the article is too long, or they are too busy, or they dont want to be bothered with reading such scientific articles...
It might be nice if supporters on all sides would read all offered readings...the refusal to read certain articles, is something done by people on all sides of this debate...
His response was, "Yes I do. Otherwise, what a waste." A pretty decent summary of my view, as well.
Ah, yes. The tree of knowledge...
But notice he condemns the other side of the debate with the same brush: "with all the unyielding certitude with which Southern Baptists assert the literal truth of the Book of Genesis."
A pretty good summary of my view on the debate, as well.
It also helps that this is Paul Johnson, a top-level historian that's pretty well-respected, even by many who disagree with him.
You may be right, but my post was about Coyoteman who plainly stated he didn't need to read beyond the first paragraph. He claims otherwise now, but isn't that exactly one of the things Johnson was talking about:"...denying a hearing to anyone who disagrees with them"?
I don't claim otherwise, sorry. I read a lot of things, including those with whom I disagree.
To reiterate my point:
...bad writing is bad writing--and the article which begins this thread starts off poorly. Bad writing often foreshadows bad thinking. I tend to avoid that when I detect it.
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