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To: bornacatholic

Though I appreciate your attempt, we've been down this road several times, nothing new here. If the Catholic church was the same church that existed in the event of Christ death I would have no problems with this, but I see several deviations from fundamental base Christian doctrine. Most of these taking place with the confirmation of Constantine, the only documents any of you ever bring to dispute these concepts is Catholic writings which lost credibility with me when these deviations took place. The concepts of kneeling before, praying to, and even worshiping Mary and the saints. The Bible is clear that all of our worship, and allegiance belongs to Christ alone. Even Peter himself told the early saints not to kneel to him. several of the sacraments, and traditions of the Catholic church have been taken from pagan religions, and most of these go against the Holy scriptures upon which the very church is supposed to be based. Not only do we see Catholics kneeling before Mary and "the saints", but we see them kneeling before Graven images of these. The scriptures themselves say that we should not make unto ourselves and graven images. Once again my friend I don't deny authority of the church, I just don't believe that the sole authority lies in the Catholic church, but lies in the God head, and is governed among all churches that follow the scriptures, and call upon the name of Christ.


52 posted on 05/07/2006 11:06:07 AM PDT by whispering out loud (the bible is either 100% true, or in it's very nature it is 100% a lie)
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To: whispering out loud

"The concepts of kneeling before, praying to, and even worshiping Mary and the saints. "




We don't worship Mary or the Saints. We've been down this road several times, too. There are prayers of intercession and this means that we're asking for the prayers of Mary and the Saints -- asking a neighbor or loved one for help is not the same as worship. I certainly did not "worship" the guy next door when I asked for his help on a mechanical issue.

We believe, like many other Christian denominations, that those in Heaven can hear us and offer assistance to us in our times of need.

Note: I am NOT saying "we are right and you are wrong." I'm saying that we have different paths to what should be the same end.


54 posted on 05/07/2006 11:19:14 AM PDT by AlaninSA ("Beware the fury of a patient man." - John Dryden)
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To: whispering out loud
Every single word of The New Testament was written by a member of the Catholic Church. Your understanding of the Bible, while I am sure well-intended, is neither authoritative or definitive. The author of any text/texts is the one best qualified to explain its meaning. That is the Catholic Church established by Jesus.

Catholics do not worship Mary or the Saints. Long ago, St. Augustine responded to these accusations by demanding those making that charge prove it.

So, prove it. There are countless old Missals, new missals, you can go to any Catholic Liturgy/Mass and use the missals there to prove your charge.

56 posted on 05/07/2006 11:42:10 AM PDT by bornacatholic (Pope Paul VI. "Use of the old Ordo Missae is in no way left to the choice of priests or people.")
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