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To: pravknight; bornacatholic; Claud; sitetest; sandyeggo; RKBA Democrat; redhead
Bornacatholic: As I have said many times before, I am thankful those who love the old Ordo Missae have the Indult. There are many real Christians whose longanimity and faithfulness is being rewarded via the Indult. It is a great grace for many and it wasn't my intention to rain on anyone's parade.

Pravnight: Bornacatholic, why do you hate Old Ritualist Roman Catholics so much?

Allow me to stick my neck out and interject some thoughts in defense of 'bornacatholic'. The TLM is the Mass of my childhood. It was the only Mass back then. As we grow older, our childhood memories remain crisp and so the following comments are drawn from that crystal clear pool of my youth.

1. For those who have only known the NO Mass but have now experienced and fallen in love with the TLM, it is difficult to comprehend the catholic culture in which I grew up. The catholic schools were splitting at the seams with baby boomers and the nuns ruled with great authority. They had no choice! At graduation from catholic elementary school, there were three 8th grade classes with no less than 55 students in each one. There was no departmentalization back then. Whichever teacher you were assigned, taught every subject in the same classroom, throughout the entire year. As puberty kicked in, so did Sister's pointer. Her clicker told us when to kneel in church and when to stand. We were herded like cattle back and forth between school and church for devotions or to attend Good Friday Mass. Attendance was taken at the 9am Mass on Sunday and parents were called on Monday if a child did not show up for the Children's Mass the previous day.

2. As for Sunday Mass, catholics showed up in large numbers out of abject fear. They were assured by priests that failure to attend Sunday Mass would result in an eternity in Hell. The churches were stuffy and hot with so many souls packed in (there was no air conditioning). The priest mumbled the liturgy in Latin (no microphones) and altar servers gave the responses. We did our best to follow along in the missals, while remaining silent. The choir sang and old ladies fingered their clacking rosary beads in the pews. Frankly, few 'actively participated' as the only participation was by the altar servers and choir members.

3. Then came Vatican Council II and everything changed .... too radically and quickly. In trying to 'restore' some authenticity to the Mass, the penduluum sung in the opposite direction. The organ was replaced by guitars and keyboards; the choir relocated behind the 'now turned around' altar. Altar servers now included girls and communion, once distributed only by the priest, was now being doled out by heavily perfumed women with painted nails. It didn't stop there. The novelties and innovations grew and continue to do so, in the most liberal parishes.

Summation: From a personal perspective, I lived through this dramatic transformation. At the time, I was still a youth and enjoyed some of the changes. However, deep inside, certain aspects of the new Mass were most disturbing. Like many other catholics, I went along, never questioning, until it grew out of contron in my parish and diocese. By then, more than 40 years had passed, Mother Angelica had taken to the air waves, and my fellow catholic freepers had supplied me with an education.

Five years ago, at the suggestion of another freeper, I sought out and attended the Indult TLM in my diocese. At the time, I was sick and tired of the 'novelties' introduced into the NO liturgy in this diocese and, grabbing my old missal, looked forward to attending the Mass of my childhood. How refreshing it was to see the priest emerge from the Sacristy, vested in the fiddleback vestment. I had already marked the pages in my missal in order to follow along. Much to my chagrin, nothing had changed. The priest mumbled the liturgy in Latin and I flipped through pages trying to follow along. Several pews in front of me were some 'traditionalist' families with their children all holding Children's Sunday Missals. Just as we did pre VCII, these children turned to their parents for assistance in following along with the priest. Surrounding me were older women, rosary beads clacking throughout the Mass. The altar boys delivered faithful Latin responses and the choir sang beautiful acapella chants. When it was all over, I felt as though I had not attended Mass at all. It was a tremendous let down.

The following Sunday, I returned to my NO parish where I could verbally speak the responses and sing along with the choir (though I limited my attendance to the only Mass with an organ and choir that sang more recognizable hymns). I was more determined than ever to battle the 'novelties' and 'abuses' at the parish in order to ensure a more faithful deliverance of the NO liturgy. It was a lost battle. The pew catholics were unfamiliar with the GIRM and cared little about how the pastor was introducing illicitness into the liturgy. It pained and grieved me no end. After watching a EMHC drop a consecrated host on the floor of the Sanctuary, I pleaded with our Lord to guide me to a holy priest, and a reverent liturgy.

As most of you already know, two years, I dusted off my sandals and went searching for a new parish. Thanks to another freeper, I included two Eastern Catholic Churches on my list. After attending Mass at several other NO parishes, I found myself one Sunday, in the Maronite (Eastern) Catholic Church. Though totally disoriented by their liturgy and liturgical language of Aramaic and Syriac, I was overwhelmed by the intense spirituality and reverence in their liturgy. It bridged the gap between West and East. The Eastern Catholic liturgies require participation by the faithful who chant the responses, like a dialogue, back and forth with the celebrant. I will never forget the communion hymn - O Bread of Life - which moved me to tears. Here was the fullness of worship that I had so desperately been seeking.

Prior to the Liturgy of the Word, the priest prepares the faithful by incensing them. This was followed by the chanting of the 'Qadeeshat' - the thrice Holy Hymn that most Roman Catholics would now recognize from the Divine Mercy Chaplet. The prayer is ancient! Holy God; Holy Mighty One; Holy Immortal One! - Have Mercy on us! We all stood and faced the Tabernacle, as the priest led us through the prayer. Coming from a RC parish where there was no Crucifix, I was moved to tears seeing the priest and congregation all facing the Tabernacle. After each recitation, the priest made a profund bow towards the Tabernacle. Yes! There is my Lord!

As if that was not enough, during the Epiclesis, I watched in stunned amazement as the priest dropped to his knees behind the altar, hands elevated heavenward as he chanted in Aramaic - 'A neen mor yo' (Hear us O Lord!) - three times, to which the congregation responded in chant - Kyrie Eleison!

Though sated with so much reverence, NOTHING in my Latin Mass background ever compared to the moment when the priest held the host in his hands and chanted the words of Institution in Aramaic - the same language of our Lord at the Last Supper. And nothing ever will! There was dead silence in the Church, save for the priest's chant. Tears streamed down my cheeks. Even now, more than 2 years later, it is the penultimate moment of reverence in the Maronite Divine Liturgy.

Communion by intinction and only by the hands of the priest. No EMHCs! No communion in the hand!

We each are caught up in a faith journey to find the liturgy that draws us closer to our Lord, God and Savior. For some of you, that is now exemplified by the TLM. Those who attend it do so out of choice; hence the reverence is far greater and deeper, as it is a personal choice. For others, such as myself, the beauty and reverence is found in the 'east'. Many catholics forget that our Lord was born, died and resurrected in the Holy Land. He was a Jew and spoke Aramaic with His Mother and disciples. Still others find it in a more reverent form of the Novus Ordo liturgy, such as is celebrated on EWTN.

The most important aspect of Sunday worship for all of us, is to ask our Lord to guide us to where He wants us to be. No one knows our needs better than our Lord! For us to sit in judgement of others is absolutely wrong.

35 posted on 05/04/2006 6:20:03 PM PDT by NYer (Discover the beauty of the Eastern Catholic Churches - freepmail me for more information.)
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To: NYer

Frankly, I think permitting the Old Rite to be said in the vernacular and eliminating the Low Mass mentality could have gone a long way in a positive direction.

The Solemn High Mass should have been the basis of the reform or the Eastern rites experiences with popular participation, for that matter.

The Anglo-Catholics had been celebrating the Old Rite in English with popular participation for at least 80 to 100 years. Their experiences with the Old Rite should have been examined as a basis for liturgical reform instead of their Evangelical cousins.

The prayers of the Old Rite have a theological depth to them that the New Rite simply lacks in my opinion.

I would agree that some changes were needed, but not in the direction that Paul VI took. The pre-Tridentine rites had a bit more popular participation than the Tridentine rite from what I have read.

The reform should have been in continuity, not in revolution.

Did you attend a predominately Irish parish by any chance?

I ask because the Irish clergy were heavily influenced by Jansenism as a legacy from the years when they were forced to attend French seminaries where Jansenism was rife.

My Italian Greek Catholic priest told me the Italians were a bit more easy going.


36 posted on 05/04/2006 6:37:43 PM PDT by pravknight (Christos Regnat, Christos Imperat, Christos Vincit)
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To: NYer

Well stated, NYer.


37 posted on 05/04/2006 6:40:45 PM PDT by RKBA Democrat (Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.)
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To: NYer
Wow. Thanks NY'er. That was samshing. I too had similar experences. In fact, I quit the Indult because I tired of how the sermon was politicized by the priest who, nearly always, castigated the shallow faith of the N.O. crowd while praising "our" (indult attendees) spirituality.

Fortunately, I moved to another Diocese where my Pastor is incomparable. He is charasmatic (in the best sense of the word) and he regularly packs the church. Many who come to Mass come solely to hear him preach. I have never heard anybody even come close to displaying such a facile and incredibly deep knowledge of Scripture.

He never prepares a sermon. "I just listen to the readings and then the Holy Spirit speaks through me." He will preach for 15-20 minutes and there will not be a single ah or um. There will be incredible spiritual insights given and he regularly moves us to tears and laughter and, often, spontaneous applause erupts when he finishes.

While I am not a fan of the music there (I am slowly working on that) I do desire that as a congregation we sing more than we now do.

Our Parish is HUGE. We prolly have 2000 (More? I 'm bad at estimating) at Mass with many blacks, hispanics, vietnamese etc and Fr, has converted literally hundreds including a Muslim family of nine and four Jewish families.

Boy do I ever identify with your beautiful description of the DL of the Maronites. I have been to several and I fell in love with their Liturgy and the Lebanese community. They truly knew the Liturgy and I had no sense the Liturgy was for them a routinized process. Far from it...

Anyways, thanks for the beautiful post and defense.

I came from a medium sized town that had a large number of Catholics. Our church was regularly packed. However, once the kids left high school, they left the town and the Faith. Virtually none of my old friends go to Mass. The same goes for other members of my family. Out of six kids, me and my sister are the only ones still active Catholics.

The Faith for many of us, as you so well noted, was legalistic and formulaic. There was no personal relationship with Jesus. We were never taught it. It was never spoken about. We were taught to be good Catholics, not Disciples of Jesus. We did memorize large parts of the Bible. We memorized our Catchisms etc. But, becoming a Disciple of Jesus? Didn't happen.

All I know is that in my current Parish the Faith is alive and the nature of the congregations' personal relationship with Jesus is expressed in innumerable ministries. These folks, a multi-racial, multi-ethnic group, really do love each other and work together to assist the poor in our area and all, in one way or the other, support our Pstor's Mission to Honduras. It is interesting to note that the many protestant converts bring with them a deep personal relationship with Jesus. They make a great contribution to the Body of Christ.

51 posted on 05/05/2006 2:48:12 AM PDT by bornacatholic (Pope Paul VI. "Use of the old Ordo Missae is in no way left to the choice of priests or people.")
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To: NYer

Wow NYer! Your recollections are mine as well. You articulate the past perfectly. I will have to find, along with Ventana, a Maronite service to try. If you are so inspired, perhaps we will share in that same inspiration. God bless. V's wife.


53 posted on 05/05/2006 5:41:16 AM PDT by ventana
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