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To: hopespringseternal
What I mean by "calvinistic" is exactly what I said earlier: most protestants think of their salvation in calvinistic terms, believing that obedience is just something they should do after they are saved out of gratitude, but has no effect on their salvation.

Historically, Protestants believe that our obedience is not the basis for our justification. The material cause of our justification is the righteousness of Christ alone, imputed to us through the instrumental cause of our faith. Our obedience does not in any way contribute to our justification.

They can't abide new testament baptism because it involves something you DO that determines whether or not you are saved. In reality, you do nothing in baptism except submit to someone else's action. It is probably the most passive element of salvation. It takes a great deal more effort to come to belief and repentence, but because those actions occur in the mind, it doesn't violate Calvin.

You are correct that we cannot abide this interpretation of New Testament baptism, primarily because while baptism is an extremely important sacrament instituted by Christ, there is no clear Scriptural support for the notion that one cannot be saved apart from water baptism. Of course, this argument invariably becomes one of extremes, with proponents of your position claiming that we trivialize baptism (nothing could be further from the truth) and proponents of ours pointing to all sorts of hypothetical examples.

The fact is that baptism is a matter of obedience and all Christians should heed the command of Scripture to be baptized. However, it is going to far to claim that apart from water baptism there is no salvation.

The root of the disagreement is the matter of whether you control your own salvation. By erasing baptism from the picture, crypto-calvinists can play the game whereby everything that takes place in their own head can be attributed solely to the action of God.

Well, I will agree that the heart of the issue is the degree of man's liberty. However, you are grossly mistaken with repect to the Reformed view of works and obedience, including baptism.

Scripture clearly teaches that while the Spirit may convict, it is still entirely within our power to harden our hearts against the Spirit, or once we are saved, to grieve the Holy Spirit and fall from grace.

I disagree, but thank you for at least clarifying your position a bit.

92 posted on 05/03/2006 9:09:08 AM PDT by Frumanchu (quod erat demonstrandum)
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To: Frumanchu
The material cause of our justification is the righteousness of Christ alone, imputed to us through the instrumental cause of our faith. Our obedience does not in any way contribute to our justification.

Except that it is impossible to have faith and be disobedient. Belief itself is an action of obedience.

You are correct that we cannot abide this interpretation of New Testament baptism, primarily because while baptism is an extremely important sacrament instituted by Christ, there is no clear Scriptural support for the notion that one cannot be saved apart from water baptism.

I am simply aghast at anyone making this assertion. Again, one does not get this conclusion from scripture without heavy editing and dubious translation. It is abundantly clear that otherwise well-meaning people are driven by another agenda that cannot tolerate real, scriptural baptism. Scripture is just too clear as to the role of baptism.

I can show a protestant the writing in black and white and they will reject it everytime. And everytime they substitute another action, the sinner's prayer, that is both more active, more of a "work" and not found anywhere in scripture, completely ignoring baptism which is found in every normal instance of salvation. Why? Because their leaders have 1) taught them to rely on their leaders rather than scripture, and 2) their leaders have come to rely on a standard external to scripture that takes precedence over scripture.

94 posted on 05/03/2006 4:31:56 PM PDT by hopespringseternal
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