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The Book of Mormon Challenge
Joseph Smith America Prophet ^ | 2006

Posted on 04/27/2006 3:03:34 PM PDT by restornu

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To: Colofornian

>>Do I detect a scent of smugness in this post [#99]?

Not intentionally, but I was asked “off the top of your head…”

>>If names are so important…

They are not.

>>Again, you seem all caught up with status.

No, I am caught up with authority. If I say to my wife, go and write some checks to pay your bills, and you overhearing me, or seeing it written down, go and use my checkbook, you would be arrested. Christ told his disciples, people he had called, anointed, set apart and instructed to go and preach. You reading about it years later, assume he was talking to you. I think that’s a stretch, your interpretation is strained, at best.

>> (1) LDS believe prophets are called by fellow men

Absolutely 100% WRONG, Prophets are called of God (Big G here) or not at all. (Heb 5:4 http://scriptures.lds.org/heb/5/4#4 )

>> (2) Why only one "living" prophet at a time?

In the early days, travel and communication were a problem, now the prophet can hop a jet, and be anywhere in the world in less than 24 hours. And that’s if being there in person is required.

>>As for the Scripture that shows Jesus Christ is our Prophet,
>>and is therefore not trumped by any Utah-based mortal: Hebrews 1:1-2

Trumped, no Rerpresented yes. Your scripture: (I find that adding the scripture, or a link to the post helps those who read later.)

1. GOD, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Interesting, I see nothing about “There will be no prophets, If I say to you “yesterday, I spoke to you on a cell phone, but today I am visiting in person” that means there will never be another phone call? And why doesn’t this mean that god and Christ are separate personages? To interpret strictly in one section and loosely in another makes as much sense as what you say we are doing. Oh, Utah is not mentioned anywhere.

BTW Sorry for the delay in responding, the flu… you don’t want to know :-), Still recovering...


341 posted on 05/05/2006 4:49:28 AM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Colofornian

>>So who exactly GAVE Christ this authority if he is the only God involved why not say I have all authority…

>>One way to understand authority & submission (the two ends of lordship) is to first
>>look @ it through the eyes of marriage. Christ submitted to death & more on our
>>behalf. Likewise, Eph. 5:25 says husbands should submit to ultimate sacrifices on
>>behalf of wives. It's a form of submission. Eph. 5 talks about mutual submission in a
>>husband-wife relationship (Eph. 5:24ff). Submission is not the negative concept
>>feminists have made it out to be; it's a divine practice within God, Himself. Jesus on
>>his knees washing the disciples' feet was not the first time He submitted; it's what He's
>>done from eternity. As Lord, He didn't grasp after authority, even though He had the
>>"right" to do so. He waited until He was granted the exercise of all of it. (Matt 28:18-20).

>>Lastly, you can't understand this concept unless you grasp something of Philippians
>>2:6-7: "Who, being in the very nature God, did not consider equality with God
>>something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a
>>servant, being made in human likeness..."

I thought we had agreed on using the KJV here…

6: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9: Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11: And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Authority and submission, right, God the father has the authority, and Christ is in submission to it, got it, next? Oh, that’s it, well how about this, I am in the form of god, I mean I look like my father who if you follow it back, looks like Adam who was created in the image of god, Jesus who was the express image of god walked among men without being noticed for his different appearance? You work it out, I already have.

BTW I wanted to go on down to verse 11 I like the “Every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess” part, yes before you ask mine and every Mormon and especially the prophet’s knees and Tongue’s even those from Utah.

You still didn’t answer the question, of why Christ needed to grant himself authority if he is the only God, he would already have it.

I submit to you that Jesus Christ’s life was more than just the culmination of the reason for the earth being created; God ordained that he be a similitude of our journey here. In the Old Testament, called by one name, he was a spirit, premortal being. For most of the New Testament, during this life, he was called by another name, came and lived on the earth, was tested, passed, suffered, overcame, served and died here. In the end of the New Testament it is clear he will return, with his resurrected body intact, in Glory as the God of this earth to rule and reign as is his right and will be called by the same name as in the old testament, because he is the same personage.

Amen.


342 posted on 05/05/2006 5:29:58 AM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Colofornian

>>BTW, I don’t see anything there that says “And never let a positive word about Mormons go unchallenged”

>>There was a 4/25/06 thread on the LDS Church posted by Utah Girl. On post #53,
>>I responded to a comment by Utah Girl, who wrote:

I stand corrected, almost never (Big Grin)


343 posted on 05/05/2006 5:31:25 AM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Colofornian

See my post 342


344 posted on 05/05/2006 5:33:06 AM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Colofornian

>>There is only one Jesus Christ. You might claim we do not understand him, you may
>>claim we are wrong about him, you might even claim we are going to hell for our
>>misunderstandings. But to claim we are not talking about the same “Only Begotten of
>>the father” is disingenuous and you know better.

>>So, you're telling me that when "anyone says to you, 'Look here is the Christ!' or,
>>'There he is!'" (Matt 24:23), we are to believe that, 'cause there's only one Christ?
>>Sorry, you flunked the Matt 24 test:
>>"do not believe it," says Jesus, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear..."
>>(Matt 24:23-24).

We are not saying he is here, rather he was here, and he continues to follow his pattern of revelation as from the beginning. We proclaim that he was slain on the cross, who suffered for all mankind’s sins, and he now lives. We proclaim that we need not die in sin. This we proclaim, this does not flunk the Matt24 test this is a misunderstanding by you, this is why you left (but didn’t really leave) the church.

>>Paul talks about "another" Jesus in Gal. 1:8.
>>How can your Jesus, who did not Create anything out of nothing, be my Jesus, the
>>creator of all things and all beings?

Mormon’s believe Jesus created all things, and all beings.

>>How can your Jesus, who is the spirit brother of Lucipher, be my Jesus, who created
>>Lucipher?

Why would he do that? Is Christ the only begotten of the father, or not? (Begotten: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=begotten )

>>How can your Jesus, whose blood was so anemic that not only is Calvary almost
>>irrelevant (LDS' belief that Jesus atoned for sin by sweating blood in Garden) but that
>>it paid only for Adam's sin but not for your personal sin or my personal sin...

BALDERDASH! Mormon’s believe no such thing. Christ paid for ALL sin, it’s just up to you to repent and take advantage of it. How dare you believe this heresy and teach others about MY faith. You know nothing about what I or other Mormons believe as evidenced by this post. You have no understanding and therefore no right to tell others what we believe because you either did not understand what was preached to you for years, or you are lying now.

>> be compared to the all-purifying nature of Christ's blood on the cross--a cross strangely
>>missing from the LDS facilities' landscape?

As you should know, we do not worship the cross any more than we would worship a gun if Christ were murdered with a gun. Countless numbers were crucified; two thieves were crucified with Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was the only one to suffer for our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane.

Let’s correct the misstating of Mormon doctrine right here:

Jesus Christ is the Savior of all, paid for all sin, and brought salvation within the reach of all.

Jesus Christ Suffered for all sin in Gethsemane.
Jesus Christ Died that all might be resurrected, thus redeeming “man” from the fall of Adam.

As in Adam all die so in Christ shall all be made alive.

>>How can your Jesus, one most LDS say they don't even pray to, be compared to my
>>Jesus who loves to hear me pray [I mean, even the Nephite disciples prayed to
>>Jesus!!!].

Yep, when he was present…

>>How can your Jesus, who LDS apostle Bruce R. McConkie told BYU students @ a
>>devotional in the 1980s that they should not seek a special personal relationship with,
>>be compared to my Jesus who said the very nature of eternal life was defined by
>>knowing Him (John 17:3)?

3: And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

So you would have this read… “And this is life eternal, that they might know me the only true God, and myself, whom I have sent.” A ridiculous interpretation on the face of it.

>>Let's face it. Don't make me dig up the quote. But even Ensign Magazine years ago
>>said that the Christian church "worships a different Jesus" than LDS do.

Dig up that Quote, I’ll bet it’s as out of context as everything else you post about us. Oh, and if you don’t have a link to the whole article, don’t bother.

>>I'm sorry. But you can't claim special revelations coming down from on high in Ensign
>>magazine, only for other Ensign mag comments to be totally disregarded by you.

I don’t even disregard you posts. I learned a lot in Taiwan, one of the thoughts of Higher learning was from Confucius. “A truly wise man can learn from even a fool” I hope I am wise enough to learn from everyone.


345 posted on 05/05/2006 6:06:08 AM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Colofornian; restornu

>>>>Since Authority begins with the creator who cares where his genealogy goes? Did
>>>>your dad have to get permission from Adam to spank you? This is a spurious
>>>>argument at best, who’s only purpose is to muddy the waters with a Mormon belief
>>>>that we are the literal son’s and Daughters of God.

>>LDS are the ones who make the huge deal out of having a priesthood.

Because having authority makes a big difference

Mark 13: 34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

Luke 9 1 – 2 ( http://scriptures.lds.org/luke/9 )
1 THEN he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.


2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.

Note, he sent those who were set apart and who had been granted authority, not the multitude who was listening, not any who read this.

>>And this is because LDS authority is perceived to be so wrapped up in it. Therefore,
>>the laying on of hands is indeed huge in Utah & the LDS concentric circle. The rite of
>>passing on authority is LDS' own construction, so don't tell me that I'm making a
>>spurious argument when so much rides on that for LDS.

Were the apostles ordained? Was it by the laying on of hands? (Yes and Yes)

Articles of Faith #5 ( http://scriptures.lds.org/a_of_f/1/5#5 )
We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

>>I can't tell you how many times I've heard an LDS missionary talk with pride about his
>>priesthood authority, and either in subtle or more open ways point out that he
>>perceives a vacuum of authority within "Christendom."
And he is right, you all claim, god told the apostles this”” and then left, that’s the last word, don’t tell me any more, I’ve got enough (Effectively shutting off revelation because you won’t listen to him whom you profess to be following)

>>I mean, just look, for example, at how many times in this thread alone you bring up the
>>question of how/where we're authorized to several posters. It's even in your blood!

Yep, that’s because it’s important to have authority to act in god’s name or anybody could say “I’m a believer, follow me” (oops, that’s what you believe, isn’t it, sorry)

>>The chain of authority within the LDS is huge. How dare you make light of it or
>>downplay it.

I’m not down playing it, it starts with the Creator, If I create you, I am in authority over you (lest I un-create you). So that’s where authority starts. (This isn’t even theology, merely logic).

restornu, thought you'd enjoy this post, thoughts on authority starting with the creator?


346 posted on 05/05/2006 6:37:59 AM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Colofornian

>>>>Please if you have other questions, ask members of the church, not those who do not
>>>>understand our beliefs because they are not members. (You wouldn't go to Ford to
>>>>find out about a Chevy would you?)

>>Yeah, we all know that used car salesmen are the perfect 100% trusted sources of
>>information on the cars they sell! Go to them and never mind consumer mags
>>weighing different autos, never mind bringing your own mechanic in to evaluate a car.

So you are the Consumer reports of Religion are you? Can you give totally unbiased responses?

It is always a good idea to go to all the car dealers (to continue the metaphor) and not tell them you are looking at other dealers’ offerings. Then go to any unbiased source of information (in this case, the only one that matters, God) and then based on what you know, decide. To me religion is way more important that a car purchase, and comparing honest practitioners of a religion as used car salesmen is beneath this forum, and disingenuous as well.


347 posted on 05/05/2006 6:45:53 AM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Colofornian; colorcountry

>>You can call it, "BTV evangelism"

Sorry, confused you with CC there for a minute, your text looks a lot alike on my monitor (squinting).
Did I mention I was coming down with the flu when I wrote that, (looks over shoulder for mods), I'm Sorry, Cough, Cough, (contrived hoarse voice) I got to go, see you later.

(GRIN)

I really am sorry about that.


348 posted on 05/05/2006 6:52:32 AM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: colorcountry

>>The book I was referring to is The History of the Church by Joseph Smith. Not the
>>other book mentioned by the other two guys Queer and Win or whatever it was. I am
>>smart enough to know the Church didn't condone a book written by a homosexual.
>>< smile - that was fun!>

>>I put a link with my source but I know if you visit it you will melt. :-)

>>Gosh it is nice to have a little funnin' on these threads.

I do not melt (sniffs) I singe! (grin)

Well, I am not one to ask for it, so I won’t (Big Grin)

Besides, we both know it wouldn’t change my mind, mine is made up based on personal revelation, and no board (no matter how wonderful it is) is going to change that. I’m sure you wouldn’t want my conviction to be any less either.


349 posted on 05/05/2006 6:57:49 AM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: DelphiUser; Colofornian
Dig up that Quote, I’ll bet it’s as out of context as everything else you post about us. Oh, and if you don’t have a link to the whole article, don’t bother.

Do you dispute the following quotes?:

"It is true that many of the Christian churches worship a different Jesus Christ than is worshipped by the Mormons or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." LDS Quorum of the Seventy member Bernard P. Brockbank, The Ensign, May 1977, p. 26

"In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints 'do not believe in the traditional Christ.' 'No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.'" LDS Church News, June 20, 1998, p. 7

"Christ was not begotten of the Holy Ghost...He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God." Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:18

"Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. ...If the Son was begotten by the Holy Ghost, it would be very dangerous to baptize and confirm females, and give the Holy Ghost to them, lest he should beget children to be palmed upon the Elders by the people bringing the Elders into great difficulties." Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 1:51

"The grand reason of the burst of public sentiment in anathemas upon Christ and his disciples, causing his crucifixion, was evidently based on polygamy, ...a belief in the doctrine of a plurality of wives caused the persecution of Jesus and his followers. We might almost think they were 'Mormons.'" Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 1:345-346

"The appointment of Jesus to be the Savior of the world was contested by one of the other sons of God. He was called Lucifer, son of the morning. Haughty, ambitious, and covetous of power and glory, this sprit-filled brother of Jesus desperately tried to become the Savior of mankind." Milton R. Hunter, Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15

350 posted on 05/05/2006 7:01:37 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (((172 * 3.141592653589793238462) / 180) * 10 = 30.0196631)
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To: restornu
The Book of Mormon is often dismissed as gibberish by those who have never taken the trouble to read it.

Okay, starting out with this blatantly false statement throws down a challenge that will result in the usual cries of bullying by those who resent it when informed people challenge the claims of a church that sends people door-to-door to tell the inhabitants that whatever church they attend is apostate.

351 posted on 05/05/2006 7:04:13 AM PDT by william clark
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To: P-Marlowe; colorcountry; restornu

>>>>I can categorically say that we do not teach this! We can be come gods, and
>>>>goddesses, but we will never be equal to God. He will always be our God.
>>Who is the God of your god? Does your god worship a being higher than himself? >>Does your father in heaven have a Father in Heaven?

Not needed so not revealed to me, yes and yes, to answer your questions.

>>Just how far down the line will you be when you become a god?

Does it matter? And what is this line business anyway God is the ultimate authority as far as we are concerned.

>>>>Besides President Hinckley is a little older than you (I think, 92?)
>>Are you saying that Hinkley was mistaken in his response about LDS Doctrine? If we
>>can't count on the sole Living Prophet of God and President of the LDS Church to give
>>us the answer in regard to what is or is not official church doctrine, then who can we
>>look to?

No, I’m saying he was in a rapid fire interview, and being older, was wise enough not to try to answer deep one liner questions there, kind of like here, getting into deep doctrine, people will edit your words and send them out twisted if you are not careful.


352 posted on 05/05/2006 7:07:07 AM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: P-Marlowe

>>Well if you don't know, that's fine. Even an "I don't know" to those questions makes it
>>clear to everyone that LDS theology and Christian theology are mutually
>>incompatible.

So, tell us everything you know, or are you incompatible with Christian theology?

(Grin)

I know that there is a lot I don’t know, in fact the more I learn, the more I become aware of that I don’t know yet and therefore, I know of more that I don’t know, but as I study that which I now know I don’t know, I again become aware of things I didn’t know I didn’t know before. I do not see how a process of learning is incompatible with Christianity, please post a reference from the scriptures (apparently, something else I did not know, well here we go again).


353 posted on 05/05/2006 7:18:07 AM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: DelphiUser; colorcountry; Colofornian
yes and yes, to answer your questions.

Then I can state categorically tht you and I do not believe in the same God. Period. I do not worship Allah, the God of the Muslims and I do not worship the Mormon god who lives on Kolob.

My God bows to no other god. There are no other Gods (anywhere) than YHVH.

354 posted on 05/05/2006 7:25:57 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (((172 * 3.141592653589793238462) / 180) * 10 = 30.0196631)
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To: P-Marlowe; DelphiUser
I do not worship Allah, the God of the Muslims and I do not worship the Mormon god who lives on Kolob.

Amen

355 posted on 05/05/2006 7:52:38 AM PDT by colorcountry (He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep, to gain what he cannot lose.)
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To: P-Marlowe; DelphiUser; restornu

I would like to add, I am also not Kookoo for Kokoubeams (who live on Kolob)


356 posted on 05/05/2006 7:54:53 AM PDT by colorcountry (He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep, to gain what he cannot lose.)
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To: colorcountry
I would like to add, I am also not Kookoo for Kokoubeams

Thanks for letting us know!:)

357 posted on 05/05/2006 8:30:54 AM PDT by restornu (An ungodly man diggeth up evil: and in his lips there is as a burning fire. - Prov.16: 27)
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To: DelphiUser

>>>>Besides President Hinckley is a little older than you (I think, 92?)
>>Are you saying that Hinkley was mistaken in his response about LDS Doctrine? If we
>>can't count on the sole Living Prophet of God and President of the LDS Church to give
>>us the answer in regard to what is or is not official church doctrine, then who can we
>>look to?

No, I’m saying he was in a rapid fire interview, and being older, was wise enough not to try to answer deep one liner questions there, kind of like here, getting into deep doctrine, people will edit your words and send them out twisted if you are not careful.

****

Amen!


358 posted on 05/05/2006 8:53:41 AM PDT by restornu (An ungodly man diggeth up evil: and in his lips there is as a burning fire. - Prov.16: 27)
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To: DelphiUser; P-Marlowe; colorcountry; restornu
And what is this line business anyway God is the ultimate authority as far as we are concerned.

Are you trying to say that since soldiers have authority doled out to them through their immediate commanding officer [we all know how the military is known for its sharp adherence to a chain of command] that such an immediate commanding officer is that soldier's "ultimate authority?" I thought the "commander-in-chief"--who in turn answers to God, Himself--one of these would be deemed as the "ultimate" authorities.

So why is it any soldier knows where the buck stops, but in your spiritual warfare where we're supposed to be a soldier of Christ (Paul's analogy), you pretend commanders in chief are irrelevant to your role.

I can think of one of those movie lines where a new boot camp recruitee would be told by his seargant something to the effect of "While you're here, I will be your momma and your daddy!! In short, I will be your god."

Yet you seem to claim that just because an immediate commanding officer is the only supervisor--the only authority he reports to in this chain of command--that just because he's the only "god" in that young soldier's new universe, that somehow making the claim "Well, he's the only god with which we have to do" gets you off the hook of being under the authority of other commands further up the chain.

Furthermore, it shows extreme shortsightedness that you don't know the ultimate spirit to whom Joseph Smith was reporting to. Somehow you reduce the LDS version of Elohim to be the "ultimate" authority when you know full well he's not. The key question to ask is, "what spirit" (if any) appeared to Joe Smith? Was it an "angel of light" masquerading under another identity? [Gal 1:8-9] And what spirit entity was really behind the scenes?

359 posted on 05/05/2006 9:45:24 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: DelphiUser
we both know it wouldn’t change my mind, mine is made up based on personal revelation

Wow! What if JoeSmith had such open-mindedness?

I can hear it now. I can just imagine it in my mind, Jimmy Stewart playing the role of JoeSmith in a Hollywood movie:

"Now, never you mind, Moroni. You just get on back up to wherever you came from, wings or not. I'm not going to change my mind. My mind's made up based upon personal revelation." [Then as wingless Moroni mozies off sullenly, JimmyJoe mutters under his breath, "Sheesh. Gold plates from South America hauled all the way to upstate New York when Arizona would have been just fine & dandy. Who would choose to write a detailed history on gold plates anyway? What? Does he think I was born yesterday? Next thing ya know this Moroni character thinks I'd believe in an invisible bunny!")

360 posted on 05/05/2006 9:57:07 AM PDT by Colofornian
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