Billy Graham's Disobedience to the Word of God

Way of Life ^ | Not sure | David Cloud

[NonLinear]

I believe that David is in Heaven with the Lord.

David didn't know Jesus. Per your posts he cannot possibly be in heaven.

[Knitting A Conundrum]

Personally, I believe I cannot tell God how and what to do.

The only guaranteed way we as Christians are sure of is Jesus, and this is what we teach and believe and hold true, but who are we to tell God he has to behave in way X, Y or Z...I suspect Mr. Graham's statement was along the same lines - a mark of humility in the presence of an almighty God, rather than a theological declaration.

God has a way of kicking us in the butt when we tell him what to do, and he is expert at splintering any box we try to force him into.

I seem to remember some friends of a man named Job who thought they had all the answers, but God told them a thing or two...and a parable about a man who knew he had all the religous bases covered, and a man who knew he was a sinner in need of God, and which of the two God preferred....

Heresy hunters get their hearts twisted up sometimes, It is good to remember the words of James on the source of wisdom, and if our results aren't matching that output, perhaps we need to pray some more:

But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, without uncertainty or insincerity.
James 3:17

[Gamecock]

Ummm, I think we said the same thing..

[P-Marlowe]

What Univeralism does is reject the power of God, to get those who want it the Gospel.

You've joined the Calvinists now?

If you preach that a man can get saved without believing in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, yes, you are preaching a false gospel.

Show me a single Billy Graham sermon where he has said that there is any other way?

If the heathen get saved without the Gospel, why bother with missionary activity?

Name one person in the world who has preached the gospel to more heathens than Billy Graham. Just one.

The issue of those who cannot make a decision, such as children, can be dealt with without compromising the Gospel.

That, in fact, was the issue that Billy Graham was dealing with. His point was simply that if someone cannot respond, or if there is ever some situation in which the gospel could not be brought to a person, that God, in his mercy will find a way to save that person if that person is willing to surrender to God's grace and mercy. It was and is a rhetorical hypothetical question.

Here's a question for you Rev. When was the first American Indian saved by God's grace and mercy? When was the first Australian Aborigine saved by God's grace and mercy?

If you answer "I don't know" then you are as much of a universalist as Billy Graham. So put down the stones as you are not without sin.

As for the thread being a disgrace, why is that?

Just read it. If you are not embarrassed by it, then I am embarrassed for you.

[wmfights]

"Sammy had demonstrated utter absolute faith in the Voice and Person of Jesus each step of that trek. As Scripture has indicated rather conclusively--that sort of faith is Saving Faith from Adam, certainly Abraham, onward. Sammy had cast his all on the Person and Voice of His new Lord step by step of that trek."
___________________________________

I think your right and I think SCRIPTURE illustrates that in Hebrews chapter 11. However, I'm not sure if your implying that an individual faithfully practicing a religion that denies the true path to salvation would still be saved because they are pious. IOW, if a person is a Muslim and is diligent in following their religion are they going to be saved?

[wmfights]

"But why bother if Billy says that they don't have to hear of Christ to be saved?"
___________________________________

It is an excellent point!

Alamo-Girl posted me his web sites, which I read and Billy Graham says that you MUST believe in JESUS CHRIST and his atoning sacrifice for us in order to be saved. Is it possible we are looking at some "off the cuff" interviews where he may have not phrased things as strongly as we like? I really don't know, I haven't followed him that closely but it does seem that there are some reputable posters who are very supportive of him.

BTW, I do appreciate your patience with all the snippy comments being posted to you.

God Bless

[Quix]

However, I'm not sure if your implying that an individual faithfully practicing a religion that denies the true path to salvation would still be saved because they are pious. IOW, if a person is a Muslim and is diligent in following their religion are they going to be saved?
---

That's the critical question about Graham's statements.

On the whole, on average, typically . . . I'd say no.

HOWEVER, WE DO !!!NOT!!! KNOW THE HEART ATTITUDE OF EACH INDIVIDUAL.

GOD IS STILL SOVEREIGN.

GOD THE FATHER HAS DECLARED THAT THOSE WHO SEEK HIM SHALL FIND HIM. I assume that He meant that those who seek Him earnestly, from and in their hearts shall find Him.

Does that mean that if someone of any other religion seriously, earnestly seeks God Almighty from their hearts, in their hearts that they will find Him regardless of whether they have consciously been presented the history of The Gospel of Jesus The Christ before their moment of death?

I believe that it AT LEAST MAY BE the case that God--in such cases--presents Jesus to the individual at their moment of death and gives them the choice of rejecting or accepting Christ as their Savior at that moment of their death and life review.

This does not violate any Scripture about Salvation, to me.

It is not something I'd encourage anyone to hold out hope for. Far toooo eternally dangerous for that, imho.

However, I am not the judge of each individual at their moment of death. God is. And God Himself has declared that HIS MERCY TRIUMPHS OVER HIS JUDGMENT.

I VERY FIRMLY BELIEVE that God's Nature is such that HE IS LOOKING FOR BIBLICAL 'EXCUSE' TO SAVE PEOPLE, !!!!NOT!!!! BIBLICAL EXCUSE TO DAMN THEM.

I believe what I've outlined above is Biblically plausible as to how Graham's statement could end up true yet also still Biblical.

And, there are quite a number of anecdotal reports indicating that such is, indeed, true. Many atheists, and folks of all kinds of other faiths etc. brought back to life have reported meeting Jesus at their moment of death and of accepting Him as their Savior at that moment.

Further, Assembly of God Pastor Roland Buck reported on his visit to the Throne Room with The Father that what Roland had taught all his life that if a person died without knowing The Gospel, there was absolutely no hope--he found in Heaven, that wasn't always necessarily true along the lines I've outlined above.

Again, I would not want to teach it as doctrine, per se. That's not the kind of dangerous last minute 'out' that I'd want anyone to cling to.

By the same token, God is a God of hope. And there are many situations in life where I believe that the above scenario is a very plausible, valid and probably true one. I believe it may be applied in many (not all) suicide cases. I believe it is likely applied in many other religion cases where the individual seriously sought Almighty God in their hearts.

I have just learned in my 59 years that God does NOT fit in our human construed tidy little boxes--even when they are so obsessively constructed on 100 proof texts of Scripture.

The religious leaders of Jesus' earthly days also had many 100's of Scripture proof text proofs of how and why God would do as they construed things. But God-in-the-flesh proved them wrong repeatedly.

I think that cautious humility and trust in God's mercy triumphing over His judgement--AS SCRIPTURE DECLARES--is the wise perspective on this issue.

[Quix]

Would appreciate your comment on my perspective in this post.

Either way, of course.

[cva66snipe]

Through GOD all things are possible. Billy Graham is counting not on mans works but GOD's to bring the heathen to Christ or give them the Gospel. Their understanding may only be that of a child though. The question in my mind which resolves this issue is can Christ indeed reveal Himself to the heathen and can the Holy Spirit teach them even where man has not preached the Gospel? I think the answer is definitely yes. Here we are not talking about going to places man can go or even where Christians can not.

John ch 10 16I have other sheep, too, that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice; and there will be one flock with one shepherd.

It is GOD's wish that none should perish but have everlasting life. This goes against what many mainstream churches preach in these times but I think GOD still calls and works in persons hearts one on one in the same way He called on Abraham. It is not a voice you hear audible but rather a revelation. Indeed it can be happening anywhere to anyone.

If GOD wished to call a person He sees of pure heart from Saudi Arabia where NT teaching is prohibited who are we to say He doesn't. IF they receive that calling and answer it they are as saved as we are. If GOD can save {call out} one such as Lott {whom if you read scripture was really not such a nice person actually} then how much more can he do for others?

There is a mystery man is yet to understand about Christ. He does and will in fact show himself to all persons including the dead so they may either believe or reject Him. After His death on the cross He witnessed to the dead.

Psalms Ch 8 1 O LORD, our LORD, the majesty of your name fills the earth! Your glory is higher than the heavens. 2 You have taught children and nursing infants to give you praise.£

How much more then can he do for man? The key word here is GOD has taught them not man. GOD can at HIS will call out anyone He wishes in any situation. He can give chance for a pagan to repent and indeed a pagan can. At that point the person is no longer a Pagan. Only GOD knows the hearts of men. We all of us are His to call upon. It is not up to us whom GOD chooses call. Some He called on in the Bible and answered Him and obeyed were some of the crudest men known including some of Christ chosen twelve.

I don't count on the judgments of man to bring salvation to those in this world but rather the Grace Of GOD through the Holy Spirit that teaches ones to believe.

[dangus]

You make a fantastic non-sequitor, this constant appeal to the logic that if someone can come to Jesus without being preached to than Jesus died in vain.

Is Abraham in Hell? David? Moses? Isaiah? Elijah?

Here's one: Point to me a single bible verse where Jesus preached that we should release prisoners. Can you? True, the New Testament hardly recalls EVERYTHING that Jesus did, but it's sort of a glaring omission, since right at the start of his ministry, Jesus states he came "to bring glad tidings to the lowly, heal the broken-hearted, to prolcaim liberty to the captives and release to the prisoners." Yet Jesus teaches to be visit prisoners; he doesn't release them.

So what does this passage refer to?

St. Peter explains (1 Peter 3:18-120): "For Christ suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God, put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit. IN IT, HE WENT TO PREACH TO THE SPIRITS IN PRISON." In other words, be being put to death, he came to life anew, and in that newness of life, he preached life to those spirits in prison. But here's the proof that St. Peter clarified that he doesn't mean living souls in an earthly prison, but, rather, the souls in hell: "IN IT HE WENT TO PREACH TO THE SPIRITS IN PRISON, WHO HAD BEEN DISOBEDIENT SINCE THE LONGSUFFERING GOD WAITED IN THE DAYS OF NOAH, while the Ark was being prepared, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water."

So Christ preached to the souls in Hades. They had not known him in life, so he came to them even in death to win their salvation.

Of course, they died BEFORE Christ's crucifixion. What difference distinguishes them morally from those who died before word of Christ reached them? None.

"... I will build my Church, AND THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT WITHSTAND AGAINST IT."

In other words, "my Church will destroy the very gates of Hell!" Then why worry about saving souls now, if they can still be saved after death? Because we can call souls to repentence, strengthen waivering souls, and heal the pains and sorrows which lead to despair!

Revelations 20 gives more detail. It describes a future scene of how AFTER the Resurrection of the holy souls, "... the sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades gave up their dead. All were judged according to their deeds. The Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire (This is the second death.) Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire."

[dangus]

>> Hellen Keller was Swedenborgian. <<

Borja borja bordubouzhie borj, borg, borg, borg!

-- The Swedish chef.

>>She was an infidel <<

Hey Dave, do moozlems go to heaven?

[Quix]

I think you put it better and much more beautifully than I.

One slight quibble--as I recall, Sammy did hear an audible voice. Some do. Most don't.

Thanks tons for an excellent post.

[cva66snipe]

Thanks for finding that scripture I hunted for it for nearly an hour. That is a part of GOD's plan of salvation which is unclear to us. But if He can minister to the dead who never saw Him how much more can He do for others who live? GOD is a GOD of mercy. His Son Christ is the Good Shepherd who seeks out all His lost sheep. It's a pity so many forget that. They can't wait to condemn & judge someone for GOD and ignore His Divine powers and mercy. Through GOD all things are possible.

[dangus]

>> If I read the article correctly, Mr. Graham doesn't say he does not believe Hell exist. He believes that the fiery torment may not refer to actual fire, but be a parallel to the agony of Hell. <<

Graham might take care not to speculate, given the authority his celebrity has yielded to him. But his speculation is surely unwarranted. Jesus, when describing Hell was a fiery pit, calls it "Gehenna." Gehenna was a smoldering waste pit outside Jerusalem, where people dumped all their waste, garbage, and even excrement. Hell was not literally just outside Jerusalem. Hell, of course, is a metaphorical name, as is Hades and Tartarus, two words which come from them pagan Greeks, who first gave the notion of eternal flame and torment.

The Jewish word for Hell implies no flame whatsoever: Sheol.

So, while it is only speculative, there is grounds for wondering just how literally the flames of hell should be understood to be.

[Corin Stormhands]

But above all that, this thread has been what you have correctly described it--a disgrace.

Agreed. Which is exactly why I asked days ago "Is this really necessary?"

The RM chose to restore the thread with a warning to discuss only the topic. I think the article has been thoroughly discredited, however some will never see that.

The article was a vile hit piece. Nothing more.

[Campion]

What Billy Graham is being held accountable to is the heresy of Universalism, that one can be saved without explicitly believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Your definition is wrong. Universalism is the belief that everyone is saved. Believing that some non-Christians might be saved by an extraordinary act of God is not the same thing as believing that everyone is saved.

That is in rejection of both Jn.14:6 and Rom.10:17.

John 14:6 says that nobody comes to the Father except through Jesus. It does not say, "nobody comes to the Father without explicitly, publicly professing faith in Jesus".

Not sure how you think Romans 10:17 applies.

What Rev. Graham is saying sounds a lot like the commonly received Catholic doctrine (though not the only opinion Catholics are permitted to hold on the topic) that virtuous people who do God's will to the best of their ability and knowledge, and can't or don't hear the Gospel due to reasons outside their control, can perhaps be saved through grace.

This does not mean that they earn their salvation by being good; nor does it mean that they are somehow saved through someone or something other than Christ. It just means that they are saved by Christ without having an explicit conscious understanding of that fact.

This idea can be developed from Scripture ("if you were blind, there would be no sin in that" and "to whom much is given, from him also much is expected") and can be seen in the writings of the church fathers at least as far back as Justin Martyr (ca. AD 150).

[wmfights]

"That's the critical question about Graham's statements.

On the whole, on average, typically . . . I'd say no.

HOWEVER, WE DO !!!NOT!!! KNOW THE HEART ATTITUDE OF EACH INDIVIDUAL.

GOD IS STILL SOVEREIGN.

GOD THE FATHER HAS DECLARED THAT THOSE WHO SEEK HIM SHALL FIND HIM. I assume that He meant that those who seek Him earnestly, from and in their hearts shall find Him."
___________________________________

It sure sounds like we are on the same page. I suspect that if Billy Graham had elaborated that we would see evidence of that persons salvation by their works we might not be arguing. We had a former Muslim who has been saved speak at church and he talked about how he knew in his heart that something wasn't right with his faith and was seeking for an answer for a long time till the Gospel was presented and then he knew immediately he needed to believe on JESUS CHRIST.

It seems to me this is why supporting missionaries is so important. The person I mentioned above would have never stayed an active Muslim because he knew something wasn't right, and I am certain that GOD intended for him to hear HIS WORD.

[DaveMSmith]

"There is granted to everyone after death the opportunity of amending his life, if it is at all possible".

Emanuel Swedenborg
Divine Providence 328

"The Lord's mercy is infinite and will not let itself be limited to the few who are inside the Church. Instead it reaches out to all in the whole wide world".

Heavenly Secrets 1032

Everyone is given the opportunity to learn of the Lord and His Heavenly Kingdom after death. No one is damned for loving the God, his neighbor and living a good life.

One other quote that seems suited to this thread:

"When you abstain from false testimonies and turn away from them as sins, the love of truth and the love of justice flow in from the Lord through heaven...As a consequence, your utterances become utterances of truth, and your works become works of justice."

Apocalypse Explained 1020

[cva66snipe]

think you put it better and much more beautifully than I. One slight quibble--as I recall, Sammy did hear an audible voice. Some do. Most don't. Thanks tons for an excellent post.

It is difficult for me to put anything in any context. It takes something beyond my functional level these days. For those who have heard the VOICE from GOD it is something very difficult to describe. Even the persons present may as scripture feel the presence of GOD and or the Holy Spirit but only one hear the message. This is coming from a Baptist BTW. It is life altering experience.

I do understand it doesn't happen to all because many don't need it IMO. It is used to call to Salvation and it can be used to prepare one for being ready to do GOD's will in a situation that seems hopeless and the person may have many options any of them right in the eyes of GOD and still not know what to do. Then comes the voice and then comes acting in faith and obedience.