Posted on 04/25/2006 4:47:30 PM PDT by NYer
Dear FormerLib,
We have been asked by the Religion Moderator to refrain from calling other posters liars. If you state that someone has lied, you are effectively calling them a liar. As well, that directly attributes motive to the poster, assuming that he said what he said out of the motivation to deceive, rather than saying something in innocent error.
sitetest
Then let him respond and we shall see if it was an honest error or not.
"I don't believe he is referring to mob mentality so much as the restoration of authentic customs."
That's the thing. Perhaps I'm simply missing it, but he seems to imply that there is a sort of extreme, forced de-latinization going on the eastern Catholic churches.
What in the wide world of sports is he talking about? Have you seen any severe, unpopular changes to enforce or restore eastern traditions in your church? I sure haven't seen them in mine. My church and Priest are fairly conservative with regard to traditions, but I'm sure not hearing complaints about that conservatism.
Orientalium Ecclesiarum specifically required eastern Catholic churches to follow their eastern traditions, and to restore those traditions where they were no longer being practiced. I'm just not seeing how implementing that directive would be controversial or problematic given that it's been roughly 40 years since that document was promulgated.
"If they keep pushing the Uniates to abandon their traditions in favor of modern alterations, they may be quite surprised by the results."
I tend to agree.
I'm curious about your statement. What eastern Catholic churches have started using lay Eucharistic ministers? I haven't seen it or heard about it. Maybe I just don't get out enough.....
Minor point that I wanted to bring up. You used the term "Uniate" in your post, which amongst some eastern Catholics is considered offensive. While I don't personally take offense, there are more considerate terms to be used e.g. Ukranian Catholic, Ruthenian Catholic church, Catholic churches utilizing the Byzantine rite, etc.
"The writings of persons like the author of this piece and especially of the Likoudis types lead me to believe that intercommunion on a Church-wide basis is highly unlikely and probably highly undesirable at this point in history."
I hope that you're basing your evaluation on more than the opinions of a few authors who have little influence even within the Catholic churches.
The reference to "lay Eucharistic ministers" was in the original article. Until I read that, I had no idea this was occurring.
As to the term "Uniate", for the Orthodox, it is the only term that we have to encompass all of the former Orthodox Churches that have sworn allegience to the Pope. I've heard that some find the term offensive, but I've never seen an explanation of why this should be so.
"Very well, let's call it a "terminological inexactitude."
Fair enough, but I think you're missing the larger point. We have a Religion Moderator who is trying to set a higher standard and tone on the religious threads. And he's right to do so.
I for one am getting tired of the profanity and the all too frequent attacks on posters. If posters want to throw around the furniture (rhetorically speaking), there are the political threads. If they want to curse, then DU beckons.
To a certain extent, we're all ambassadors for our (Christian) religion and these threads should reflect the better parts of our natures.
"I hope that you're basing your evaluation on more than the opinions of a few authors who have little influence even within the Catholic churches."
I am. It appears to me that among practicing Latin Rite Christians, there is an abysmal lack of knowledge about Orthodoxy, or even the Eastern Rite Catholic churches. What this seems to lead to is an attitude that we'd best come to our senses and "submit" to the Roman Pontiff. People with this mindset are all too ready to accept the sort of tripe the author of this piece and Likoudis are out pushing. And frankly, we don't want anything to do with that type, in our parishes or out. Nominal Latin Rite Catholics don't think about any of this so they aren't a concern. Most theologically educated Latins don't talk this way, but even among them there is a serious lack of understanding of eastern Christian theology and praxis. Intercommunion with them would just bring trouble for us. I think that that realization among the Orthodox interlocuteurs in the Dialog is causing deep concern among the Latin participants.
Now please notice I said that I doubted intercommunion on a "Church-wide" basis would happen or be a good idea. I think we may be quite close to de jure intercommunion with the Eastern Rites and I sincerely believe that is a great idea.
'Extreme' may be a bit "extreme" a term to use but I understood his point. After two years in this Maronite parish, I have learned much about what transpired over the years following VCII. Many of the eastern catholics were treated like 2nd rate citizens in this country, even by the Catholic Church! I know of one parishioner who entered a catholic hospital for surgery and was denied communion because he listed himself as 'Maronite Catholic'. It took a gargantuan effort on his part to convince the hospital staff that the Eastern Catholic Churches were all part of the One, Holy, Catholic Church. Chalk it off to ignorance.
Have you seen any severe, unpopular changes to enforce or restore eastern traditions in your church?
Nothing 'extreme'; however, there is a gradual shift back to authentic tradition. In the Maronite Church, given that is now spread all over the world, the trend is much more gradual with emphasis initially placed on proper translation of the liturgical texts. Frankly, some of them need to be rewritten in a more meaningful format. Occasionally we will encounter some translated text that makes little sense; it simply followed the pattern of 'rhyming'. (Example: the word 'supernal') that has appeared for two weeks running.
And, as I mentioned in my previous post, the notion of restoring authentic distribution of the Sacraments. Chrismation is now given at the time of Baptism, rather than follow the Latin Church's method of dragging it out until the teen years.
I'm just not seeing how implementing that directive would be controversial or problematic given that it's been roughly 40 years since that document was promulgated.
All I can do it refer you back to the above postings. Some of the Eastern Catholic Churches, in their desire to demonstrate adherence to the Magisterium, dropped their own liturgical practices in favor of adopting those of the Latin Church.
Here's an interesting situation. In this week's edition of the RC Diocese of Albany's newspaper 'The Evangelist', was an interesting article entitled: "How To Dialogue With Orthodox". The article speaks about a RC priest who will lead a discussion at the upcoming 'Spring Enrichment' (no date, time or place given) to explain the relationship between the communion of Catholic Churches, including the Eastern rites and the Orthodox Churches.
As you can imagine, the article immediately caught my attention and I planned on calling the priest giving the talk to suggest he include those Eastern Catholic clergy present in this diocese. Meanwhile, I had a phone call from my pastor. At the end of our discussion, I mentioned the article. He asked me for the name of the priest conducting the seminar. When I told him his name, he responded: "He is totally clueless". He then explained that when the Maronite parish was without a priest, this particular priest wass assigned to say Mass on Sundays. Not only did he get everything wrong, he gave erroneous information to the parishioners about their status in the Catholic Church.
So, dear friend, while we may not have experienced it in our short time with an Eastern Catholic Church, there apparently have been situations over the past 40 years, when Eastern Catholics were misunderstood and their needs ignored. There is now a concerted effort to restore authenticity, to which you and I shold be respond: "Amen!"
"I've heard that some find the term ("Uniate") offensive, but I've never seen an explanation of why this should be so."
I believe it has to do with it's ties to the term "uniatism". Uniatism as used in the vernacular tends to mean a deceptive effort by the Catholic churches to bring Orthodox believers into the Catholic church fold. So being called "Uniate" is perceived by many eastern Catholics as being akin to being called a "Papist dupe" or "Catholic intriguer."
As I say, I don't personally find it all that offensive. I would put it on a par with being called a "Papist." In truth, I guess you could say that I am in fact a "Papist." I am Catholic, and I happen to really like the Pope. But I think you'll agree that the term "Papist" as normally used is meant as a slur.
"I am. It appears to me that among practicing Latin Rite Christians, there is an abysmal lack of knowledge about Orthodoxy, or even the Eastern Rite Catholic churches."
I'm relieved. And you're right about the lack of knowledge on the part of Latin rite Catholics about eastern Christianity. If I run into a Latin rite Catholic and mention that fact that I attend an eastern Catholic church, the inevitable question I get is: "what is that?" They might have heard the term "Orthodox", but have zero idea as to what that means, or what a Divine Liturgy even is.
The bad news is that the level of ignorance is appalling. I should know: until a couple years ago, I didn't even know what an eastern Catholic was. And now I go to an eastern Catholic church.
The good news is that there is genuine curiosity. These folks are pretty much a blank slate when it comes to eastern Christianity. We can view that as an opportunity, or a liability.
"The good news is that there is genuine curiosity. These folks are pretty much a blank slate when it comes to eastern Christianity. We can view that as an opportunity, or a liability."
I think its relatively safe for you guys to treat this curiosity as an opportunity. Once the Latins figure out that your bishops are in communion with the Pope, they are likely to make an honest investigation of both your Eastern theology and your liturgical and devotional praxis. For us, however, once the curiosity is semi-satisfied we generally get one of two reactions. First, an insistance that they can come to the Divine Liturgy and receive communion because "Father said we could" and second, that we can't possibly be "valid" because we are not "under" the pope. The positions are of course antithetical but these curious Latins can't seem to get that idea. In the end the curiosity just seems to cause stress for everyone and since we feel no need at all to "convert" Latin Rite Catholics, its best for us to leave it alone for now. Frankly, while our "converts" from the Melkites and Maronites and "Greek Catholics" seem to slide into Orthodoxy without so much as a bat of the eye (as have our Armenians and Copts)the Latin Rite "converts" have a harder time even than the Protestants. Experience tells me that the Eastern Rite Catholics and the Non-Chalcedonians really have an almost exactly the same theology and as a practical matter ecclesiology as Orthodoxy. Latin Rite ecclesiology and its theology of the sacraments and even more so of the nature of sin is at the same time both very much like but also very different from that of Eastern Christianity. That makes for a difficult time. Both of you must have noticed that.
Anyway, for you Eastern Rite types, no problem at all; for Protestants, its hard but since they have no well developed sacramental theology or hierarchial ecclesiology, not too hard but for the Latins, well its tough. And of course having some priest "without a clue" leading a seminar on "Dialoging" with the Orthodox won't help matters any.
"There is now a concerted effort to restore authenticity, to which you and I shold be respond: "Amen!"
Absolutely! I just haven't quite figured out where the author is seeing this problem with too fast of a restoration to tradition, or how it's being overzealously applied. Frankly, I think it's a red-herring on his part.
Your story about the cluefulness-challenged Priest is interesting and ties to the bigger issue of ecumenism or cooperation or whatever you wish to call it with the Orthodox. There is a lot of "this is new and cool so let's do it" undertone to the ecumenical efforts we're seeing these days.
"For us, however, once the curiosity is semi-satisfied we generally get one of two reactions. First, an insistance that they can come to the Divine Liturgy and receive communion because "Father said we could" and second, that we can't possibly be "valid" because we are not "under" the pope. The positions are of course antithetical but these curious Latins can't seem to get that idea."
We run into the problem of Latins not accepting the....what was the term you use? Phrenoma? of the eastern churches as well. Particularly in areas where the local Latin diocese tends towards heterodoxy.
I really do think that most people are probably right where they should be. But the key word here is "most." There are exceptions to the rule: I know that from personal experience. I think we have something of a duty to reach out. It certainly doesn't hurt the eastern churches to increase awareness of our presence as well as to leave a positive impression.
I hope others will seek the truth as I did and find it in the true Orthodox church. It was a long road from Roman Catholocism(modern to traditional) to Ukrainian Catholic to Orthodoxy to Old Calendar Orthodoxy. It is nice to be home!(the truth is very hard to find--sign of the times--and very hard to stay in)
Congrats on your journey and home!
And welcome to FR!
Everybody is seems is having a go at the Eastern Orthodox Church...including the liberal lying media It doesn't matter to them that it was the Russians who died by the millions at the bloody hands of the Soviet Commies...who were by no means exclusively Russian!
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/12/13/churchrepents.shtml
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