Pope Urged to Ax 'Vicar of Jesus' Title

Moscow Times ^ | April 2005 | By Tom Heneghan

[Cato1]

Pope Urged to Ax 'Vicar of Jesus' Title By Tom Heneghan Reuters

PARIS -- Pope Benedict XIV, who has dropped his title "Patriarch of the West" to boost ties with Orthodox Christians, should scrap more terms tagged to his name if he wants real progress, a senior Russian Orthodox bishop said.

Papal titles such as "Vicar of Jesus Christ" or "Sovereign Pontiff of the Universal Church" were "unacceptable, even scandalous" for the Orthodox, Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev said in a statement published this week on his web site.

"Only renouncing titles stressing the universal jurisdiction of the pope, and the ecclesiological doctrine hidden behind that, would be a real step on the path toward reconciliation between the Orthodox and Catholic churches," he wrote.

Hilarion, Russian Orthodox bishop of Vienna and his church's main representative in Europe, said the "Patriarch of the West" title was actually more acceptable than some others.

Benedict, who has made better relations with the Orthodox a priority of his papacy, quietly dropped "patriarch of the West" from his nine official titles early in March.

Vatican relations with the Russian church, the largest of the Orthodox churches, have been strained because the Moscow hierarchy opposes Catholic attempts to win new members there following the fall of communism in 1991.

Russian Orthodox Patriarch Alexy II said last month that he hoped for a rapid resolution to the problems between the churches.

Cardinal Walter Kasper, the Vatican's top official for ecumenism, said neither side wanted to lure believers away from the other.

Hilarion said a statement from Kasper's office clarifying the change did not explain how it could help dialogue between the two churches split since the Great Schism of 1054.

"The Pontifical Council's communique cannot be considered an adequate response" to differences between them, he said.

The Orthodox accepted the pope as the "first among equals" in pre-schism Christianity and as the patriarch of Western Europe as opposed to other patriarchs in Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem, he said.

"It is only in this form that the Orthodox could accept the primacy of the bishop of Rome if church unity between the East and the West were to be reestablished," he said.

The Orthodox, based mostly in Russia, Eastern Europe and Greece with diaspora churches around the world, reject papal authority and maintain a loose family of national churches with a spiritual leader based in Istanbul.

There are about 220 million Orthodox Christians around the world, compared with 1.1 billion Roman Catholics.

Kasper said last month that bilateral talks had improved the prospects for a meeting between Benedict and Alexy, but it was too early to speak of a time or place.

Hilarion objected to three of Benedict's eight remaining titles -- "Vicar of Jesus Christ," "Successor of the Prince of the Apostles" and "Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church" -- because the Orthodox do not believe any cleric can claim such authority.

The rest -- Bishop of Rome, Primate of Italy, Metropolitan Archbishop of the Roman Province, Sovereign of Vatican City and Servant of the Servants of God -- refer to more limited powers of the pope and do not clash with Orthodox views.

[Conservative til I die]

It would be nice if the Orthodox would show some goodwill

Outside of a few nice Freepers (and usually only when fighting against Protestantism together) I've yet to see goodwill from the Orthodox, particularly the hierarchy. Seriously, seems like a lot of men with real angry hearts. Very little joy shown at all.

[TaxachusettsMan]

Of course you think I don't have an answer.

Your whole spiritual life and method of Biblical "interpretation" is based on the premise that I don't have an answer and that you have all the answers in your Bible - interpreted correctly - by . . . well, by YOU!

The Plain Meaning = Your Meaning.

No thanks!

We have all the answers we need! And have for 2000 years - and will for 2000 years more or till whenever Christ returns in glory.

I was demonstrating the fallacy of "private interpretation" by pointing out to you the symbolic/literal dilemma which, as I imagined you would, you jumped right into and got all tangled up in.

Repeat: I do NOT need to WONDER what in the Scripture is meant literally and what is meant symbolically or how any of it is to be interpreted. In fact, no one needs to so wonder, since Christ left us a Magisterium, precisely so that we would not be at the mercy of the kind of confusion you find yourself in.

You reject all of that 2000 year heritage of Catholic Christianity and you're welcome to do so. It's a free country (so far).

Of course, all of what I said, am saying, could ever say sails right over your head and always will. I've seen you anti-Catholic, Bible-thumping folks come and go throughout a lifetime, interpreting away in your hundred thousand competing little sects, each one of you your own little Pope and Bible interpreter.

Oh, you were almost right about one thing. We're right because we've always had and ever shall have Christ's promise to be with his Church until the end of time and to make sure that we hear his voice in her authoritative teaching. It's right there in the Bible - just not in YOUR PRIVATE (and erroneous) interpretation of it!

Enjoy!

[Conservative til I die]

So what's your objection to the titles he has?

He's a Protestant. Interjecting for interjection's sake.

[Conservative til I die]

Jesus warned against exalted titles. The disciples took no exalted titles in the NT.

What's so "exalted" about "Bishop of Rome" or "Patriarch of the West" (recently dropped) or "Primate of Italy"?

They're accurate descriptors of rank, occupation, authority. The Pope *is* the Bishop of Rome. The Pope *is* the male leader of the Western Church. The Pope *is* the highest ranking Catholic religious leader in Italy.

I think you're just fooling yourself because these titles have a mysterious, foreign sound to them. Even "Vicar" just means he represents someone, in this case, Christ.

I mean, if a man attains the rank of General in the Army, which means that he has certain authority and command, does that mean he is exalted? What about a Colonel or a Major?

[Conservative til I die]

Hmmm... "Deacon" or "Supreme Deacon of the Universe"

Did anyone call the Pope "The Supreme xxxx of the Universe?" Keep the discussion in reality and stop using embellishments to make your case.

[Conservative til I die]

I interpret the admonition about titles to be a caution against letting exalted titles go to your head, admonition against rejecting humility and the like--entirely as a reminder that we're created equal.

The admonition is pretty clear if a) you're not trying to use it just to dig at the Catholic Church and b) you're applying some basic logic.

It's similar to the "Call no man your father" sentiment. Pretty clearly, Jesus is saying not to put absolute faith in another man as if he was equal to our Father in Heaven.

[LibKill]

I am not Catholic, but the majority of my family is. So, I am familiar with Catholic Theology and thought. I am not expert in these matters.

Even so. Peter was the first Pope and Christ gave him the keys to the kingdom. "Vicar of Christ" means in Christ's place.

It is very much like the document that lets me sign my boss's name on routine paperwork.

[PetroniusMaximus]

Well you seem to really like to make outlandish claims and then conveniently "forget" to offer any sort of basis for them. Since you argument seems to circle around the Magesterium, in case you missed it my question the first time, I'll ask it again:

"What is the basis for this claim of unerring interpretation?"

You claim to be right "all the time" in your interpretation. What is your basis for this claim?




"Of course, all of what I said, am saying, could ever say sails right over your head and always will."

I get so tired of the "oh, you just don't get it because your a stupid Protestant" line. It's dishonesty and arrogance rolled into a little non-answer.



"Your whole spiritual life and method of Biblical "interpretation" is based on the premise that I don't have an answer"

Actually, that's not true. I respect a great deal of Catholic interpretation. A lot of it is right on the money. But there are certain things where your teaching is either in conflict with the Scriptures or has no Scriptural basis. Honorific titles is one of them.

[PetroniusMaximus]

"Supreme Deacon of the Universe"

Ok, let's be precise...

"Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church"

[PetroniusMaximus]

"What's so "exalted" about "Bishop of Rome" or "Patriarch of the West" (recently dropped) or "Primate of Italy"? "

Official Papal title:
"Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Jesus Christ, Successor of the Prince of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, Primate of Italy, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman province, Sovereign of the State of the Vatican City, Servant of the Servants of God."


"But you are not to be called Rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers." - Jesus



"I mean, if a man attains the rank of General in the Army, which means that he has certain authority and command, does that mean he is exalted? What about a Colonel or a Major?"

Thank you! Jesus addressed this very point! We do not take our cue from the way the world behaves. We are to be the exact opposite!

"But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:" - Matt 20

[Conservative til I die]

"Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church"

Supreme: Greatest in power, authority, or rank; paramount or dominant. Ultimate; final.

Pontiff: The pope. A bishop.

Universal Church: The Catholic Church.

I don't see what's so exalted about this. This title is a decriptor of the Pope's position, rank, and authority in the CHurch.

Is this very much different than calling the President "The Commander in Chief" of the Armed Forces?

[PetroniusMaximus]

"Supreme: Greatest in power, authority, or rank; paramount or dominant. Ultimate; final ... I don't see what's so exalted about this."

Come on!!! You're kidding, right? I mean, you've got to be kidding. You've practically listed all the synonyms of "exalted".



"Is this very much different than calling the President "The Commander in Chief" of the Armed Forces?"

"But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you:"

[Robertsll]

Besides, the only historical evidence that St. Peter transferred his authority to the bishops of Rome, ad personam, come from the spurious Clementines.

Peter died as leader of the Church in Rome, I wonder who his successor would be?

[Robertsll]

And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:"

Papal title: Servant of the Servants of God

[PetroniusMaximus]

"Papal title: Servant of the Servants of God"

The title means nothing if one doesn't posses the characteristic of being the servant of all - as many popes clearly have not.

And a servant of all, generally, does not REQUIRE others to kiss his feet.

[Conservative til I die]

"Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Jesus Christ, Successor of the Prince of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, Primate of Italy, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman province, Sovereign of the State of the Vatican City, Servant of the Servants of God."

Let's address each title one-by one...

Bishop of Rome - Well, we'd all agree that Bishop is a Biblical title (though most Protestant Churches don't have such an office). And a bishop normally is an overseer of an entire area, mostly known as a diocese or an archdiocese. In this case, the Pope's diocese is Rome.

Successor of the Prince of the Apostles: Well, Peter was the leader of the Apostles and was called the Prince of the Apostles. He was also Bishop of Rome. And as we know, the Pope is the successor of Peter.

Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church: I addressed this in another post, but if you breakdown the words it just means the Pope is the the highest ranking Bishop of the Catholic Church, a final or ultimate authority. Supreme doesn't necessarily mean greatness of character or holiness.

Primate of Italy: This is a similar title to "Bishop of Rome". The Church has several titles that signify a Bishop's authority over a region. In this case, the title is not related to his position as the Pope. It's related to his geographical location. He's simply the top ranking Bishop in Italy. There are other Primates for other countries. Acting as Primate of Italy, the Pope would only have authoriy over Italy and her bishops, similar to how the Primate of say, France or Spain would have a similar amount of authority over their respective countries, on par with the Pope's.

Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman province: Similar to the Primate of Italy title, signifying a Bishop that runs a very large, key diocese/province.

Sovereign of the State of the Vatican City: This is the Pope's secular title as the head of state of the Holy See (a/k/a Vatican City). No different than being called Mayor, Governor, or President. It has nothing to do with his religious titles.

Servant of the Servants of God: This doesn't seem to be a very exalted title. It means what it says, that the Pope is following in Christ's footsteps. Those who follow Christ are His servants. The Pope is the servant of these servants. Very humble if you ask me.

[TaxachusettsMan]

The basis for the Magisterium of the Pope as the Successor of Peter and of the bishops in communion with him rest solidly on the scriptural witness of the Gospels, from Christ's commission in Matthew through the post-resurrection three-fold entrusting in John, through the obvious role of Peter in Acts, etc. etc. etc. (all of which interpretations couldn't be true, since you don't think they are, and you ARE the authoritative interpreter of Scripture . . . well, at least for you).

This in turn is confirmed by Tradition (which you reject) and interpreted faithfully and unerringly by the Magisterium (which you also reject).

I don't believe I called you a stupid Protestant. I called you an anti-Catholic Bible-thumper, because that's how you've appeared to me on here. I don't think any self-respecting Protestant Church would want to claim an old-fashioned proof-texter like yourself.

And when it comes to arrogance, there is NO MORE ARROGANT stance possible than your own self-designation as the unerring interpreter of scripture.

I just hope that you don't have children . . . I mean, after all, what would they call you? After all, Jesus wouldn't want them calling you "Father." Maybe you could get away with Dad. You'll have to get an official interpretation on that. How about asking . . . yourself!?!

[Conservative til I die]

"Supreme: Greatest in power, authority, or rank; paramount or dominant. Ultimate; final ... I don't see what's so exalted about this." Come on!!! You're kidding, right? I mean, you've got to be kidding. You've practically listed all the synonyms of "exalted".

DO you actually understand the meaning of the word "great" or its superlative "greatest"? It has multiple definitions. Some indicate a particular quality, as in "This food is great!" or "This is the greatest man I have ever met." However, it also can signify quantity. "The greatest amount of money I won at the track was $200." "The President has the greatest power in the Executive branch".

Similar meanings apply to paramount, dominant, ultimate, and final. I mean, when I say "I have to button my penultimate button" on my shirt, does that mean that the "ultimate button" is somehow of better quality or extremely special?

"But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them

So basically you're saying that there should be total anarchy in the Church. Well, I guess if you're a non-denominational Protestant that's exactly what I guess you would believe in.

[Robertsll]

So we should not show respect to our leaders? Great idea.

[dangus]

>>How did the vicar of saint Peter become the vicar of Christ?<<

That's easy. When Christ made St. Peter his vicar:

I WILL give you the keys to the kingdom of Heaven... I am the Good Shepherd... The Good Shepherd will not abandon his flock... Peter, shepherd my lambs... I will send to you the paraclete...

Uh, you do know what a vicar is, don't you?