Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Pope Urged to Ax 'Vicar of Jesus' Title
Moscow Times ^ | April 2005 | By Tom Heneghan

Posted on 04/05/2006 9:49:12 PM PDT by Cato1

Pope Urged to Ax 'Vicar of Jesus' Title By Tom Heneghan Reuters

PARIS -- Pope Benedict XIV, who has dropped his title "Patriarch of the West" to boost ties with Orthodox Christians, should scrap more terms tagged to his name if he wants real progress, a senior Russian Orthodox bishop said.

Papal titles such as "Vicar of Jesus Christ" or "Sovereign Pontiff of the Universal Church" were "unacceptable, even scandalous" for the Orthodox, Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev said in a statement published this week on his web site.

"Only renouncing titles stressing the universal jurisdiction of the pope, and the ecclesiological doctrine hidden behind that, would be a real step on the path toward reconciliation between the Orthodox and Catholic churches," he wrote.

Hilarion, Russian Orthodox bishop of Vienna and his church's main representative in Europe, said the "Patriarch of the West" title was actually more acceptable than some others.

Benedict, who has made better relations with the Orthodox a priority of his papacy, quietly dropped "patriarch of the West" from his nine official titles early in March.

Vatican relations with the Russian church, the largest of the Orthodox churches, have been strained because the Moscow hierarchy opposes Catholic attempts to win new members there following the fall of communism in 1991.

Russian Orthodox Patriarch Alexy II said last month that he hoped for a rapid resolution to the problems between the churches.

Cardinal Walter Kasper, the Vatican's top official for ecumenism, said neither side wanted to lure believers away from the other.

Hilarion said a statement from Kasper's office clarifying the change did not explain how it could help dialogue between the two churches split since the Great Schism of 1054.

"The Pontifical Council's communique cannot be considered an adequate response" to differences between them, he said.

The Orthodox accepted the pope as the "first among equals" in pre-schism Christianity and as the patriarch of Western Europe as opposed to other patriarchs in Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem, he said.

"It is only in this form that the Orthodox could accept the primacy of the bishop of Rome if church unity between the East and the West were to be reestablished," he said.

The Orthodox, based mostly in Russia, Eastern Europe and Greece with diaspora churches around the world, reject papal authority and maintain a loose family of national churches with a spiritual leader based in Istanbul.

There are about 220 million Orthodox Christians around the world, compared with 1.1 billion Roman Catholics.

Kasper said last month that bilateral talks had improved the prospects for a meeting between Benedict and Alexy, but it was too early to speak of a time or place.

Hilarion objected to three of Benedict's eight remaining titles -- "Vicar of Jesus Christ," "Successor of the Prince of the Apostles" and "Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church" -- because the Orthodox do not believe any cleric can claim such authority.

The rest -- Bishop of Rome, Primate of Italy, Metropolitan Archbishop of the Roman Province, Sovereign of Vatican City and Servant of the Servants of God -- refer to more limited powers of the pope and do not clash with Orthodox views.


TOPICS: Catholic; Orthodox Christian
KEYWORDS: benedictxiv; catholic; orthodox; pope; russia; russianorthodox; vicarofchrist
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 101-103 next last
To: marsh_of_mists

I agree. Now they are just pushing it.
There comes a time when enough is enough.


21 posted on 04/06/2006 10:10:05 AM PDT by Scotswife
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: PetroniusMaximus
Jesus warned against exalted titles. The disciples took no exalted titles in the NT.

You have to call them something. What do you call them? "Dude"? "Cool Guy"?

The NT Christians use titles such as deacons, presbyters, elders, and episkopos (bishops). Elder and bishop are exalted titles by your standard.

22 posted on 04/06/2006 12:22:45 PM PDT by Robertsll
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Cato1

Hilarion's request is hilarious.


23 posted on 04/06/2006 12:23:59 PM PDT by steadfastconservative
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: steadfastconservative
Hilarion's request is hilarious.

That is exactly why I am not hopeful of a union with the Russian Orthodox Church. Russians are well... Russians. They don't like foreigners. They distrust the motivations of outsiders.

Catholic Europe developed into a cosmopolitan community prior to the Protestant Revolt and "Enlightenment". Russia and the Russian Orthodox Church has always been and will always be nationalistic.

24 posted on 04/06/2006 12:30:37 PM PDT by Robertsll
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: drewmc2001

DJ Benny & the Be-Bop Bishops?


25 posted on 04/06/2006 1:04:27 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Robertsll
"You have to call them something."

How about "Brother Benedict"


"The NT Christians use titles such as deacons,"

Hmmm... "Deacon" or "Supreme Deacon of the Universe"

See any difference there?



Papal exalted titles are against the spirit of the NT, they were prohibited by Christ and they serve mainly to divide Christians. Can you think of a really good reason to ignore Christ's teaching?
26 posted on 04/06/2006 1:17:02 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: PetroniusMaximus
Hmmm... "Deacon" or "Supreme Deacon of the Universe"

See any difference there?

You are going to extremes here.

The etymology of the word bishop comes from the Greek word episkopos (åðéóêïðïò), which can be generally translated as bishop, overseer, superintendent, supervisor, or foreman.

The term "Vicar of Christ" is very biblical if you accept Matthew Chapter 16.

27 posted on 04/06/2006 2:35:04 PM PDT by Robertsll
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: PetroniusMaximus

How do you get around with no eyes and no hands?

After all, Christ said, that if your eye were an occasion of sin to you, you should gouge it out, and if your hand led you to sin you should chop it off.

Oh . . . and if you've had the misfortune to lose one of your parents in death, I hope that - in fidelity to the words of Jesus - you didn't go to their funerals.

After all, let the dead bury their own dead.

And it must get cold in the winter walking around with no sandals . . .

Get a life.


28 posted on 04/07/2006 11:35:52 AM PDT by TaxachusettsMan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Robertsll

By the same token, the Patriarch of Antioch could claim that same title because he too is a Successor of St. Peter.

St. Peter went to Antioch First :)


29 posted on 04/07/2006 11:53:35 AM PDT by pravknight (Christos Regnat, Christos Imperat, Christus Vincit)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: TaxachusettsMan
"How do you get around with no eyes and no hands? "

Since you seem to be implying that Jesus words were symbolic, what do you think he was getting at in the passage about no titles? If he didn't mean what he literally said, what was he "alluding" to?




"After all, let the dead bury their own dead."

You see symbolism? Metaphor? Odd, since I'm sure you find him to be most literal when he refers to eating his flesh. Right?
30 posted on 04/07/2006 12:00:49 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: pravknight
By the same token, the Patriarch of Antioch could claim that same title because he too is a Successor of St. Peter. St. Peter went to Antioch First :)

You sound like you're saying I don't know Church history. What you fail to understand is the bishops of Antioch did not replace Peter as leader of the Church. Unless you claim that Evodius (bishop of Antioch for many years while Peter was still alive) was the leader of the Church at the same time as Peter.

St. Peter was leader of Antioch for a time. Then he left and lead the Christians in Rome. Because he died as Bishop of Rome, not Bishop of Antioch, Peter's successor is the Bishop of Rome.

Peter's primacy resided with Peter throughout his life. He did not leave it with Bishop Evodius in Antioch.

31 posted on 04/07/2006 5:25:48 PM PDT by Robertsll
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: PetroniusMaximus
Would you be a devotee of the Battered Sheep Ministry?

The Pope is more than a spiritual teacher like your local minister, he oversees a vast network and is also the sovereign of the Holy See (The Vatican), a nation-state. These are titles attached to the office to which he was elected. You might have an argument for eliminating all formalities and titles across the Catholic Church but I don't see a reason to single out the Pope.

I interpret the admonition about titles to be a caution against letting exalted titles go to your head, admonition against rejecting humility and the like--entirely as a reminder that we're created equal.

32 posted on 04/07/2006 10:37:30 PM PDT by newzjunkey (Fellow 50th Congressional Freepers: Don't fall for Bilbray!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Robertsll

In any case, the Patriarch of Antioch is every bit as much a successor of St. Peter as the Bishop of Rome. Successor of St. Peter is a title of the Melkite patriarch, not to mention the other claimants.

Besides, the only historical evidence that St. Peter transferred his authority to the bishops of Rome, ad personam, come from the spurious Clementines.



33 posted on 04/08/2006 1:43:54 AM PDT by pravknight (Christos Regnat, Christos Imperat, Christus Vincit)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: pravknight
The Pope should restore the title Vicar of Sts. Peter and Paul. From the acts of the Second Council of Nicea:If the ancient orthodoxy be perfected and restored by your means in those regions, and the venerable icons be placed in their original state, you will be partakers with the Lord Constantine, Emperor of old, now in the Divine keeping, and the Empress Helena, who made conspicuous and confirmed the orthodox Faith, and exalted still more your holy mother, the Catholic and Roman and spiritual Church, and with the orthodox Emperors who ruled after them, and so your most pious and heaven-protected name likewise will be set forth as that of another Constantine and another Helena, being renowned and praised through the whole world, by whom the holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is restored. And especially if you follow the tradition of the orthodox Faith of the Church of the holy Peter and Paul, the chief Apostles, and embrace their Vicar. Christ is present now and unto the ages, and in a sense every bishop is a Vicar of Christ according to St. Ignatios of Antioch. The title Vicar of Christ is nothing but shear Ultramontane triumphalism. Theodoret of Cyrrhus LXXXVI.(2) To Flavianus, bishop of Constantinople: Dioscorus, however, refuses to abide by these decisions; he is turning the see of the blessed Mark upside down; and these things he does though he perfectly well knows that the Antiochene metropolis possesses the throne of the great Peter, who was teacher of the blessed Mark, and first and coryphaeus of the chorus of the apostles.(3)
34 posted on 04/08/2006 1:54:48 AM PDT by pravknight (Christos Regnat, Christos Imperat, Christus Vincit)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: pravknight

For goodness sake, the Pope of Alexandria has historically borne the following titles, which the Melkite patriarch continues in the Catholic Church:
"Bishop of Bishops, Pastor of Pastors, 13th Apostle, Judge of the Universe."


35 posted on 04/08/2006 2:04:31 AM PDT by pravknight (Christos Regnat, Christos Imperat, Christus Vincit)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: dangus

How did the vicar of saint Peter become the vicar of Christ?


36 posted on 04/08/2006 3:24:56 AM PDT by John 6.66=Mark of the Beast?
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: PetroniusMaximus

Oh, don't worry about me, dear. We've a Magisterium with authority from Christ in an unbroken descent from Peter to instruct unerringly in matters of interpretation.

The symbolic/literal dilemma is entirely yours!

Goes with the territory of "private interpretation".

And you're welcome to it!

I just think you should spend your precious time minding your own confused spiritual business, rather than waste it trying to teach lessons to the Church that, by Christ's mandate, was Mater et Magistra long before you were born and will continue to be so long after you've been caught up in the Rapture!


37 posted on 04/08/2006 10:08:28 AM PDT by TaxachusettsMan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: TaxachusettsMan
"Oh, don't worry about me, dear. We've a Magisterium with authority from Christ in an unbroken descent from Peter to instruct unerringly in matters of interpretation."

I'll take that to mean that you don't have an answer to my question... or that you would rather not answer. No surprise, since your "tradition" is clearly against the plain meaning of the Scripture.


"to instruct unerringly in matters of interpretation."

What is the basis for this claim of unerring interpretation? Just because you "say so"???



"Goes with the territory of "private interpretation"."

I'll stick with the example of noble Bereans of Acts, who, when confronted with an issue turned to the Scriptures (not the Magesterium) to seek the truth.



"I just think you should spend your precious time minding your own confused spiritual business, rather than waste it trying to teach lessons to the Church"

Your Church make a claim to a title. I dispute that claim with the Scripture. You have no answer to my Scriptural argument except something to the effect of, "oh, we can't be wrong 'cause we're always right".

And who looks confused here? (hint: it isn't me)
38 posted on 04/08/2006 11:16:03 AM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: newzjunkey

"You might have an argument for eliminating all formalities and titles across the Catholic Church but I don't see a reason to single out the Pope."

Exactly. That is my argument. If Jesus meant what he said then all the pompous titles should go. Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant and whatever.

Jesus was born in a cattle stall. What kind of message is implied by that?


39 posted on 04/08/2006 11:21:18 AM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: Cato1

More demands rom the Russian State Church. Booo-ring.


40 posted on 04/08/2006 11:33:14 AM PDT by Conservative til I die
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 101-103 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson