Some Latin set to return to Novus Ordo

CNA ^ | March 20, 2006 | Catholic News Agency

[TaxachusettsMan]

All I can say is: Please don't wait till October!!!!!

Since we're not allowed to use the "A" word during Lent, how about Laus tibi, Domine, Rex aeternae gloriae?

By the way, memo to one poster whose name I forget: the Pope is Benedict, not Gregory.

And isn't it amazing how converts, God love them and we all welcome them = but why do they waste time tracking down gossip about various people in and out of the Vatican and then violate charity by posting it?

[Hermann the Cherusker]

If Mass is not made into a theatrical performance, there won't be applause.

This applies equally to those who want to see Opera House Mozart Masses performed in the Old Rite as to those who make the Novus Ordo into a stage act.

[wideawake]

Well said. The simple joy of a Low Mass devoutly celebrated according to the 1962 Missale Romanum is unequalled.

[kstewskis]

Believe me, they'd have to fight to be able to get the Mass out of the grip of the "Eucharistic ministers" and others who essentially control the liturgy nowadays.

Isn't that the sorry truth!

I think he should mandate these changes, but first he should mandate studies for all of the priests in the Church - one year of liturgical Latin with study of the Old Mass to give modern priests a better foundation in tradition, combined with an introduction to chant and Catholic music and art.

Very sound, solid, and sensible approach. I hope we see this in the near future. I wonder if today's "current" priests would be required to go back and learn (and/or review) these studies...kind of like "continuing education?"

And he should do it in such a way that any bishop who refuses to obey should have to go out and find himself a job flipping burgers at McDonald's to pay for his retirement.

Love it! LOL

[Notwithstanding]

Oh quit it with that common sense.

[marshmallow]

More Latin would be excellent and I agree that the readings should remain in the vernacular. If I read Scripture at home as part of my daily spiritual exercises, I read it in my mother tongue so there's no reason why I shouldn't be able to hear it in the same tongue at Mass.

However, there's one other thing which I'm looking for which will really show that the counter-revolution has begun in earnest and that is to turn the priest around and make him face away from the people and toward Jesus in the tabernacle. That one thing alone would do more to cripple the "I'm an entertainer" mentality so common among today's priests, than anything else of which I can think.

[ArrogantBustard]

The document would also encourage a greater use of Gregorian chant and classical polyphonic music; the gradual elimination of the use of songs whose music or lyrics are secular in origin,

Huzzah!!!!

as well as the elimination of instruments that are “inadequate for liturgical use,” such as the electric guitar or drums, although it is not likely that specific instruments will be mentioned.

Better be specific, Your Holiness. Give the "liturgists" a nanometer, and they'll take a lightyear.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Yes, we are so fortunate here in Philadelphia to have a diocese with good taste and Catholic faith.

Here's new St. Helena's, one of several beautiful new parishes recently erected in the diocese.

[kstewskis]

There is no reason at all why the Confiteor, the Gloria, the Credo, the Preface, the Pater Noster and the Agnus Dei should not be in Latin or the Kyrie in Greek.

Agreed. And I also see no reason why the Confiteor be left out period each week by a number of priests where I (occasionally) attend the N.O.

Or, is there a reason many will do this?

[kstewskis]

I thought then that if we at least could all say our basic prayers in Latin, we would both know what we are saying and we could do it together.

You said it, siunevada!

If we are The Chuch Universal (and I know I'll get flamed for this) why are we not praying with each other in common language (aka the language of the Church)?

[wideawake]

The real reason: they hate the Confiteor because even the revision is just too darn old-fashioned a prayer.

The excuse they'll give you: the responses of "Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy, Lord have mercy" adequately express penitence and therefore the Confiteor is unnecessary.

And instead of the Preface, I should have said the Sanctus. Perhaps both.

[TaxachusettsMan]

Actually, the point was NOT to face Jesus in the tabernacle (remember, in many very old and/or famous churches - in St Peter's Basilica, for instance - there is not and never was a tabernacle on the high altar), but to face East (even when a particular parish church did not really face east, the orientation of the altar was called "liturgical East").

The best current discussion/explanation of this is in Cardinal Ratzinger's THE SPIRIT OF THE LITURGY (chapter 3: The Altar and the Direction of Liturgy Prayer, pp 74-84). That chapter is essential reading for presenting the theological/liturgical reasons in favor of the practice.

But your conclusion is absolutely correct: that would go toward about 90% of eliminating the sorry spectacle of Mass as "The Father X Show".

Of course, as long as anything is in the vernacular, some priests will not be able to resist the temptation to "ad lib" - and that's the other factor that fuels "Mass as Entertainment".

It has been said that the new Mass - rightly or wrongly - was put together by a commission of academics and monastics. Academics know enough to know what they don't know, so they would not be inclined to ad lib. Monastics are trained in the self-effacement of communal life in which the Holy Rule and the customary of the house - not one's personal whim or supposed wisdom - determine what one does and doesn't do, down to the least detail. THEY might actually OBSERVE an Order of Mass.

The average priest in the parish, neither an academic nor a monastic, faced with and facing the people feels (or sadly has) the need to "communicate" with them - and he's fluent (more of less!) in the language - so ad-lib away!

Anyhow, read Cardinal Ratzinger for an eloquent presentation of the rationale behind East-ward facing liturgy.

[kstewskis]

The real reason: they hate the Confiteor because even the revision is just too darn old-fashioned a prayer.

Eeek.

I wonder just how many people who attend Mass, where this is (sometimes unknowingly) omitted, think that:

(in my own short form) "I confess that I have sinned exceedingly in thought, word and deed through my fault...ect...and ask the Saints to pray for me"...

Is really "old fashioned?"

Nice "assumption" on the liturgical directors part, doncha think?

Wow.

[Cheverus]

I saw a film last weekend called "Joyeux Noel" about the WWI Christmas ceasefire on the Western front. One scene included the French, German and Scottish soldiers attending an outdoor Mass, it was particularly enlightening and edifying to see them respond in unison "Et Cum Espiritu Tuo"....because the they all understood the language of the Mass.

The vernacular is all well and good, but for unity's sake more Latin trumps that.

[murphE]

If I read Scripture at home as part of my daily spiritual exercises, I read it in my mother tongue so there's no reason why I shouldn't be able to hear it in the same tongue at Mass.

You do realize that at a TLM, the epistle and gospel are generally re-read by the priest in the vernacular before the sermon, so this should not be an issue.

[marshmallow]

My memories of the TLM of my childhood are somewhat hazy, I'll admit, but I don't ever remember that happening.

I've also been to one TLM in recent memory (not in the USA) and there was definitely no reading of the Epistle and Gospel in the vernacular.

Is that a general thing in the US now??

[AnAmericanMother]

Removal of the clown suit would be a nice touch too.

The Catholics are johnny-come-latelies in THIS line -- there's a church in London that's been doing it for YEARS.

[murphE]

It has been my experience, that in weekday low masses, when no sermon is given the epistle and gospel are not re-read in the vernacular. However, I have always heard them re-read in the vernacular at every Sunday mass, and every other Solemn Feast day, and any other day when a sermon is given.

I guess I cannot say what is the "general thing" in the US, or anywhere else, because my experience is limited. I may have been making an error by assuming my experience is general. And, I have no memory of the TLM before the council - I was born after it closed. =D

[JustMytwocents70]

thanks for posting the pics of st. helenas. I would have to disagree though that not all the new churches that have sprung up in the philly archdiocese are 'beautifull'.

Saint Anthony of Padua, although nice is lacking in some things. nameley the statues of the blessed mother and saint Joseph. I understand Mongignor did not want those there.
Also - they adore the happy clappy crap there every sunday as well.

Corpus Christi is kind of modern looking too.