The Holy Trinity

3/19/06 | Carl Eldredge

[Zuriel]

**Genesis 1:1 says "In the beginning God..." The word used here for God is Elohim. The word is plural.**

Plural, as in infinite? After all, God cannot be measured.

**In Genesis 1:26 God said, "let us (pl) make man in our (pl) image." The message here us clearly that God is a more than one.**

Yes, "our" is plural. As in dual nature: Almighty Spirit of God (the Father), and foreordained plan of having a fleshly body, or "image" (not images) complete with a soul (the Son).

"God, who....calleth those things which be not as though they were." Rom. 4:17

"Having made known unto us the mystery of HIS will, according to HIS good pleasure which HE hath purposed in HIMSELF: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times HE might gather together in one ALL things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him" (the Father is in the Son). "In whom also we" (the church) "have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated" (the church) "according to the purpose of HIM who worketh ALL things after the counsel of HIS own will." Eph. 1:9-11

Foreordained, for He said, "Thou art my Son, this day have I BEGOTTEN thee". Ps 2:7. "but when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, MADE of a woman, MADE under the law." Gal. 4:4

'Eternal' and 'begotten' are practically opposite in definition.

It's simple: The Father is Spirit (John 4:23,24) and the Son is fleshly man (doing what 'the Father in him' shows him to do. John 5:19-27 and 14:9-13)

**In Matthew 28:19 Jesus commands the apostles to baptise in the name of "The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.**

Note: "name" is singular.

And what did the apostles do? They didn't simply repeat a command, they obeyed it. When my boss tells me to use his authority to tell a new client what we will/can do for them, I don't say, "My boss has asked me to tell you....", without first making sure they know his name.

Jesus said: "I am come in my Father's name.." John 5:43
Jesus is the name of the Son. "..and thou shalt call his name Jesus.." Matt. 1:21
Jesus said: "..the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name.." John 14:26

Acts 4:12 "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

That is why when the apostles OBEYED Matt. 28:19, they baptized in the name of Jesus: Acts 2:38; 8:12,16; 19:5; baptized in the name of the Lord (obviously, that is Jesus) Acts 10:48
We are to be buried with HIM in baptism. Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:12

Some my say, "It doesn't say they used the name Jesus in every instance of baptism recorded in Acts." True, some passages just say 'baptized' with no name mentioned. Isn't it strange that there is no repeating of Matt. 28:19 in baptism in all of the remainder of the NT? Not to me.

Suppose you moved to a different town to find a new life. How many times would you need to be told word by word, step by step, how to get to a new job/grocery store/church house? Once, twice, thrice? (I know, I know, there's times I wish I could forget how to get to the workplace).

That's why, when one gets finnished reading Acts, baptism in the name of Jesus should be the obvious answer to Matt. 28:19. Of course, that is the case when one is not shackled to centuries of religious tradition that has refused to adhere to the Word, either ignorantly or knowingly (they gotta keep the money coming in, even if it requires 'changes' in the apostles doctrine, ya know) . The Devil knows the power of Jesus name, and within hours of that birthday of the church, set into motion counterfiets (that would appear religious, even 'Christian', but not have the power of the name).


Sorry about the length. I said I like to discuss the Godhead, and it shows, I suppose.

[Zuriel]

**To explain the trinity, they must use non biblical terms that require twisting scriptures and ignoring others.**

True.

[tenn2005]

When I baptise someone I always say "In the name of the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit." (Matt 28:19)

Please show me any scripture where any Apostle ever said anything different. And don't give me a scripture that says what they "did," give me a scripture that states what they "said".

[Eagle Eye]

Please show me any scripture where any Apostle ever said anything different.

Please show us scriptures where they actually said that.

If this was such a monumental command from God Almighty one would think that they would have followed it. But they didn't.

[Diego1618]

More insane dribble. Someone needs help.

I'll not forget the way you put this a few months ago on another thread. I wrote it down.

You said....."To support the idea of a three in one God head you have to use terms not found in the Bible, rely on false scripture, rely on twisted interpretations that contradict extremely clear scriptures and create a convoluted theory that no one really understands, forcing its adherents to declare it a mystery."

Best description of the "Trinity Doctrine" that I have ever heard.

[JWinNC]

http://www.probe.org/content/view/45/77/

You may find this interesting.

jw

[Uri’el-2012]

In the Beginning was the Word. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

"YHvH saves" as in Psalm 118-14 is Yahoshua

followed by "He saves" in the same verse which yields Y'shua

Our hope is in Y'shua HaMashiach ( Jesus the Christ )
or the anointed one who is YHvH who has become our salvation.

If we look into the Holy Word of G-d , we find:

Psalm 92:15 ..... "YHvH is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him."

and

Psalm 118-14 YHvH is my strength and song, And He(YHvH) has become my salvation(Y'shua).

But

Deu 6:4 "Hear, O Israel! YHvH is Elohym, YHvH is one!

and repeated by Y'shua in Mark(for Peter)

Mark 12:29 Y'shua answered, "The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! YHvH OUR Elohym IS ONE('echad) YHvH;

Echad means one as in "one flesh" as in :

Genesis 2:24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.

The Name above all other names.

b'shem Y'shua

[tenn2005]

"If this was such a monumental command from God Almighty one would think that they would have followed it. But they didn't."

If you don't know what they said than don't acccuse them of disobeying Jesus last command.

[Salvation]

Trinity Sunday (and the Trinity season)

HaSheeloosh HaKadosh: The Holy Trinity

Trinitarian Mystery

MARY’S RELATIONSHIP WITH THE TRINITY

The Divine Trinity

[whispering out loud]

wrong answer, go back and reread John chapter 1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. And by him were all things made, and with him was nothing made that was made. Verse 14, And the Word became flesh and dwelt among men.

This passage was clearly talking about Christ, and it was made crystal clear that he was there from the beginning.

[brwnsuga]

Jesus had a genesis ... a beginning at birth.

Well then who was G-d speaking to when he said in Gen 1:26 Let us make man in OUR image? ( We are triune as well with a physical body, a spirit and a mind or soul and therefore we are made in His image) Why he was speaking to His son and the Holy Spirit. and Gen 1:2 says the Spirit of G-d was hovering above the waters. If indeed G-d has no beginning and no end then doesn't that mean that His son and Spirit already existed with Him?

[whispering out loud]

creed, I'm sorry, I've heard of no creed, that must be part of the Catholic doctrine, I'm not Catholic.

[Zuriel]

**( We are triune as well with a physical body, a spirit and a mind or soul and therefore we are made in His image)**

Is your body, spirit, and soul separate and distinct? Co-equal? Co-eternal?

Just curious, why do some prefer (as you) to spell God with a hyphen in place of the 'o'. Why the 'o' instead of the 'd'?

[Thinkin' Gal]

When it is said that this, that, or the other doctrine needs to be "taken on faith", my question is, "Faith in what?"

Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

What exactly did Noah believe? The word of Hashem.
What exactly did Abraham believe? The word of Hashem.

They knew that when Hashem speaks, He speaks the truth always. His word is true. Same for the others who live "by faith." They had faith in Hashem's words because the source of the message is Hashem, who does not lie. To believe Hashem is to believe what He says.

So back to doctrines that need to be taken "on faith". "By faith" has been slickly redefined to mean faith in vague/incomplete/convoluted explanations by those who peddle the doctrines of men. Otherwise the words of Scripture would not be so "difficult" and "confusing". One must choose to have faith in expositors, when the expositors contradict the plain words of Hashem.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

To be content - to trust - scholarly claims, without the interest/motivation to examine these doctrines against the word of Hashem (starting with Torah and the Neviim), is not characteristic of those who diligently seek Him.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

By me = the way, the truth , and life

Proverbs 12:28 In the way of righteousness [is] life; and [in] the pathway [thereof there is] no death.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked* with God: and he was not; for God took him.

*01980 halak {haw-lak'}
akin to 03212, a primitive root; TWOT - 498; v
AV - go 217, walk 156, come 16, ...away 7, ...along 6, misc 98; 500

1) to go, walk, come
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to go, walk, come, depart, proceed, move, go away
1a2) to die, live, manner of life (fig.)
1b) (Piel)
1b1) to walk
1b2) to walk (fig.)
1c) (Hithpael)
1c1) to traverse
1c2) to walk about
1d) (Niphal) to lead, bring, lead away, carry, cause to walk

Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

The way (path of righteousness) is to believe (and therefore do) the word of Hashem... He is what He is... truth. His messengers speak the same language: truth. Paul told the Corinthian church that they were 1) the body of Christ, and 2) the temple of G-d. If the word is literally G-d who is Jesus (as claimed from John 1), then the church (the body of Christ) is making itself G-d.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Christian interpretations of the above pin the rap on the Jews... as if Torah-observant Jews are going to worship a man as G-d. The Torah-free zone is the church.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

[Zuriel]

**Please show me any scripture where any Apostle ever said anything different. And don't give me a scripture that says what they "did," give me a scripture that states what they "said".**

Do you say one thing, and do another? Some would call that hypocrisy.

Please....please tell me you're not a professional blamer (lawyer). :-) (actually, I am good friends with four lawyers).

I can only recommend that you read my posts over again, slower.

As Eagle Eye (maybe he should be Owl Eye) very wisely asked, show a scripture where the apostles repeated Matt. 28:19 during a baptism.

I smell cook'in in the kitchen, gotta go!

[tenn2005]

"As Eagle Eye (maybe he should be Owl Eye) very wisely asked, show a scripture where the apostles repeated Matt. 28:19 during a baptism."

And I said that there in no record of what the Apostles or anyone else "said" during a baptism.

Jesus commanded them to baptise in the name of "The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.(Matt 28:19) I have no reason to believe that they did not carry out this command. You, on the other hand want to claim that they disobeyed Jesus' instruction because there is no record of them saying those exact words when baptising someone. You are arguing from the silence of the scripture and that is a very dangerous position to argue from.

[Zuriel]

**You, on the other hand want to claim that they disobeyed Jesus' instruction because there is no record of them saying those exact words when baptising someone.**

Disobeyed? Not at all. They understood the command and followed it by baptizing in the name of Jesus. ("I come in my Father's name.." Father's name must be Jesus. The Son's name is Jesus. "..the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name.." And that would be Jesus. too)

**And I said that there in no record of what the Apostles or anyone else "said" during a baptism.**

Actions speak louder than words. THE RECORD SEZ WHAT THEY DID!

"..only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus". Acts 8:16
"..they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." Acts 19:5
Notice they didn't repeat Matt. 28:19, they fullfilled it.

There's a lot of preaching to the lost in Acts, but many of the sermons are not printed in full, with direct quotes. Does that mean that maybe the entire gospel message was not told in those cases? We both know the answer to that question.

I've given numerous scriptures in posts 11 and 21. I believe they harmonize with each other. That's the way to discuss doctrine. Lots of scripture.

Lord willing, this can be discussed further tomorrow. Goodnight, friend.

[tenn2005]

If you will read John chapters 14 to 17 with an open mind you will find that Jesus speaks of Himself, God, and the Holy Spirit as three distinct intities. Notice specifically the following verses.

14:16 Jesus will pray to God and God will send the apostles another helper.
14:17 That other helper will be the Spirit of Truth (Holy Spirit)
14:25 Jesus had taught them some things while present with them.
14:26 But the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send will teach them all things.
14:28 Jesus is going back to the Father who is "greater than Jesus."
16:7 If Jesus does not "go away", the Holy Sprit will not "Come."
16:12 Jesus still has much to teach them, but they were not yet ready to hear those things.
16:13 They will be taught those additional things at a later date by the Holy Spirit.

The record shows that Jesus kept his word and sent the Holy Spirit to guide the Apostles. (Acts 2:1-4)

The entirety of Hebrews, chapter 1, sets Jesus up as an intity searate and apart from the Father. John 3:16 makes this distinction very clear also.

Notice also Acts 7:55-56 Stephen, while being stoned, being filled with the "Holy Spirit", looked up and saw the heavens opened and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.
Here we see the Holy Spirit, Jesus and God at the same time in different locations and as separate entities.

The same is true following the baptism of Jesus. (Matt 3:16-17) Jesus is coming out of the water, the Holy Spirit is descending in the form of a dove, and God is Speaking from heaven. Again the three separate entities in three separate locations at the same time.

In I Cor 15:24-28 Paul shows the superior authority of God (the Father) over Jesus (the Son).

I could go on for page after page but it is very clear from scripture that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three separate and distinct entities always working in perfect harmony and purpose.

[Diego1618]

one....not three

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Whatever, the trinity is a modern resurrection of Baal worship.

A hearty amen. :-)