FOX'S BOOK OF MARTYRS, CHAPTER IV, Papal Persecutions

Christian Classics Ethereal Library ^ | John Fox

[SoothingDave]

From your hilarious link.

An Eyewitness Account of the Saint Bartholomew's Day Massacre
by François Dubois
From the Musée Cantonal Des Beaux-Arts, Lausanne Switzerland

August 24, 1572, was the date of the infamous St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre in France. On that day, over 400 years ago, began one of the most horrifying holocausts in history.

Your "eyewitness" testimony begins by noting the events are over 400 years old. Exactly how is this possible? Where does this alleged "eyewitness" testimony begin and end?

More:

The descendants of the survivors that reached America were determined that this tragedy should not occur here. Many of them were prominent in the founding of the country. They knew that an armed citizenry in France would have prevented this tragedy from ever happening—and as a result—they gave us the First and Second Amendments to the Constitution. They knew that freedom of religion and an armed citizenry go hand in hand:

I thought they were all murdered in their sleep? How would having arms have helped them?

Do you seriously wish to suggest that none of the "100,000" people murdered in their sleep (including the noblemen planning regicide) had any weaponry?

SD

[Campion]

I think it is because they ...

Since the claim is flatly wrong, I don't really see much point in thinking up explanations for it, any more than there's a point in my thinking up explanations for why you believe the moon to be made of green cheese.

[Campion]

They knew that an armed citizenry in France would have prevented this tragedy from ever happening—and as a result—they gave us the First and Second Amendments to the Constitution. They knew that freedom of religion and an armed citizenry go hand in hand

Works for me!! :-)

[Theoden]

lol

[wmfights]

"Since the claim is flatly wrong, I don't really see much point in thinking up explanations for it, any more than there's a point in my thinking up explanations for why you believe the moon to be made of green cheese."
___________________________

Then why did you bother to respond?

I think you see so many Protestant denominations because we don't place our FAITH in an institution. If we find that our denomination has walked away from SCRIPTURE and can not be reformed we leave and find a denomination that is SCRIPTURAL. Roman Catholic's, OTOH, seem to defend their church even when it is clearly wrong and will parse every word to show how it was right. I think this is because you place your FAITH in an institution rather than in a personal relationship with JESUS CHRIST.

[Campion]

I think you see so many Protestant denominations because we don't place our FAITH in an institution.

That is because your churches are founded by men, and ours by the God-Man. Scripture says that the church is the pillar and ground of the truth. How many sermons have you heard on that Scripture in your Baptist church? But it's there, in black and white, and Scripture cannot lie.

If we find that our denomination has walked away from SCRIPTURE and can not be reformed we leave and find a denomination that is SCRIPTURAL.

IOW, you submit the church to your own personal judgement. But what makes you infallible? Nothing at all. If your church were founded by Christ, you would be completely wrong in leaving it. But it's not. You have spoken rightly.

I think this is because you place your FAITH in an institution rather than in a personal relationship with JESUS CHRIST.

I don't have a mere "personal" relationship with the Lord Jesus; I have a family relationship. Big difference. And, since I believe the Catholic Church to have been founded directly by Christ on blessed Peter, to not place my faith in it as well would be to reject the works of Christ while claiming allegiance to him. You wouldn't want me to be that kind of hypocrite, would you?

[STD]

What's your point in posting this material? It just divides us.

[wmfights]

"If your church were founded by Christ, you would be completely wrong in leaving it."
_______________________________

Actually I am a member of the one true CHURCH of CHRIST, Founded by CHRIST, and of which CHRIST is the head. I am a member of the body of BELIEVERS who because we BELIEVE and our BORN AGAIN are a part of the eternal CHURCH in JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD AND SAVIOR.

[wmfights]

"...since I believe the Catholic Church to have been founded directly by Christ on blessed Peter, to not place my faith in it as well would be to reject the works of Christ while claiming allegiance to him."

_____________________________________________

I thought I was right, thanks for illustrating what I always suspected. I am sure from reading your posts that you are a serious Roman Catholic.

When you say, "to not place my faith in it as well would be to reject the works of CHRIST while claiming allegiance to him", you are stating that to disagree with your church would be to deny JESUS.

I always wondered why even with overwhelming evidence that the Roman Catholic Church was wrong RC's would argue to the death that it was right.

[kaehurowing]

I'm a proud descendant of Italian Protestants who fled into Switzerland in the 1500s to avoid being burned at the stake by the Pope and Inquisition.

[redgolum]

I was mainly curious.
Of course there was Mageburg, ect. We can play this game all night. As I have said, I have yet to find a truly innocent party in the religious wars of the 16 and 17th centuries.

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

Good point. What year did the Roman Catholic Church marry the state under Constantine? I've always believed that is the point where Roman Catholicism really went off track becoming more political than religious.

Excuse me. The work is called Foxe's Book of Martyrs, which would not exclude those saints martyred by pagans. Your quarrel is not with Foxe, but rather those who are attributing Foxe's documentation of martyrdom done by Pagan Roman Authorities to the Roman Catholic Church

[dangus]

ROTFL! Jack Chick can't find his sources for his papal anti-Christ pronuncements, so he cites a terrorist Protestant instead! I'm sure if I need to find out what Protestants REALLY believe, I can contact Sinn Fein!

Of course, the scary thing is that Jack Chick is a much more peaceful-minded person than Foxe!

[Theophane]

I will raise this at the KC meeting tonight and see if there is any interest.

[FreeRep]

I found Martyrs Mirror an excellent history of more than 4,000 martyrs, spanning from the time of Christ through the mid-17th century. It's a good factual account from church libraries in Netherlands and Germany of persecution of Christians from the Anabaptist (Mennonite, Amish) standpoint. "The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church!" The main point is that killing anyone, regardless of which church they are in, because of their Faith, is wrong.

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

***What's your point in posting this material? It just divides us.***

We hav an old saying down here...
"When you stir up old s#!t it still stinks."

[JRochelle]

May I recommend a book for you to read?

The Martyr's Mirror. A book about Christians being persecuted and killed for their faith by the Catholic Church, and the state.
Written in the 1600's.

[dangus]

>> Bump to the medal the Pope issued in commemoration of the "victory" of the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre. <<
Of course, the reason for the Pope being glad was that the French were now free to support the war against the Muslims. The Pope had strongly urged the French Queen to solve the Hugenot problem quickly, because the Hugenots were both diverting the French attention from repelling the Muslim horde, and funding pirate raids against the Spanish fleets, who had just won the plainly miraculous battle of Lepante. Had that war battle been lost, Europe would have fallen to the Muslims.

The anti-Spanish alliances, based in Netherlands and funded by British, Protestant nobility were terrified that the Spanish victory over the Muslims at Leponte would help solidify Spanish political authority. The French and many English even believed that a marriage between England and France, re-establishing Catholicism in England was imminent.

France, however, had no interest in establishing Catholicism, and sought a secularist alliance with the Hugenots, instead of a Catholic alliance between England, Spain and France, hatching a marriage between French royalty and a Hugenot prince. A Catholic dissident faction, named the Guises, assassinated the Hugenot prince. Hugenot leaders angrily demanded reprisals, insisting on destroying the French state. Thus, the French throne called for a pre-emptive strike at a gathering of Hugenot leaders.

Once fighting openly erupted, the Guises began attacking Hugenots independently. Some Catholic leaders expressed horrors that the fighting had descended from military strikes into general rioting. Others viewed it the way the US has viewed Iraqi attacks against terrorists: it violates the policies we need to uphold for political legitimacy, but God bless the commoners for desiring to put an end to the persistently destabilizing elements.

Edicts were issued by the Queen to try to stop the bloodshed. It is hard to know if she was genuinely appalled at the violence, or feared political domination was being thrown towards the Guises.

By the end of the fighting, 1100 dead were buried, but hundreds more were thrown into rivers and streams. A Protestant book, published in the 1580s, claimed more than 15,000, but could only account for fewer than 1000. Over the centuries, the figures grew by leaps and bounds. Some now say 100,000, but many sources say as few as 2000 died.

Papal expectations that the battle would yield a stronger French Catholicism were soon to be dashed. The French monarchy settled the fourth religious war by establishing a Supreme Monarchy which was nominally Catholic, but thoroughly secular in nature, making heretical claims about the meaning of "divine right" and creating an absolutist state. For two and a half centuries following the massacre, the French nobility was nominally Catholic but functionally agnostic or even atheist, and remained a bitter rivalry with more truly Catholic regimes in Austro-Hungary, Poland, and Spain. The throngs eventually would cheer the atheistic Reign of Terror for wiping away the false pretenses of Catholicism, and the Roman Catholic Church would recognize evil fruits of the massacre.

I would even hazard a bet that the lessons of St. Bartholomew's Massacre constitute a huge portion of the reason French cardinals blanche so fearfully at President Bush's talk of "pre-emptive strikes," "imminent war," and cheering of the Iraqi people's taking the battle against terrorism into their own hands. Four and a half centuries ago, they were split by similar talk, and with the very same enemy in mind. (in this case, I differ from the French cardinals because I believe war with Islam is inevitable, so "failure" to create a peaceful detente between Islam and the West is not necessarily horrible.)

[Conservative til I die]

The main point is that killing anyone, regardless of which church they are in, because of their Faith, is wrong.

Agreed. Unfortunately there's a lot of whitewashing going on by certain Protestant elements here and elsewhere. The ones who actually do own up to Protestant persecution and abuse of Catholics generally excuse it with a "turnaround is fair play" demeanor.

[Conservative til I die]

The Martyr's Mirror. A book about Christians being persecuted and killed for their faith by the Catholic Church, and the state. Written in the 1600's.

Is it as ridiculous as the Fox book? That atrocity I put on the level of a KKK or Neo-Nazi pamphlet, or even worse, a Jack Chick tract.