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To: AnalogReigns

>> Just for your information, before the Reformation, the canonicity of what you call the deuterocanonical books had not been officially decided by Rome <<

Absolutely false. Ecumenical councils do not invent doctrine, they discern what has always been recognized. Hence, Trent, common to Protestant apologetics, did not invent the canon, rather it recognized what had alwats been seen; it found no credible evidence that any church anywhere had ever rejected the deuterocanonicals as unfit for use in worship.

The only confusion revolves around the books of Esdras. Certain early Christian communities recognized the books of Esdras which became known as Ezra and Nehemiah. Others chose to use a book which has come to be referred to as "Greek Esdras" which was, in essence, a summation of both books into a shorter book. Since Sola Scriptura is a Protestant invention, the issue of a canon is sort of a response to the Protestant crisis. Scripture, for the Catholic church, has two key elements: that it contains essential doctrines, and that it is used in mass. Since there are no doctrines in Greek Esdras, and it is unused in mass, it was allowed to slip into a sort of canonical-status limbo, so to speak.

Likewise, there are a few other "apocrypha" which historical records suggests have been used in certain liturgical contexts, although they possess no unique doctrine, such as 3 Maccabees, and "Psalm 151." They may be found in certain Orthodox and Coptic bibles, but are not typically reprinted in the Catholic bibles.

You will find that the Council of Trent did not so much say, "These books are in the bible, and these are out." Rather, it said, "Catholics are obliged to uphold the doctrines in these books." (I'm paraphrasing because I'm too busy to look the quotes up.)

Your argument about what non-believing Jews should be upheld comes largely from paranthetical notes written by St. Jerome. You will also find that St. Jerome vigorously denied that these notes must not be taken to suggest that they are not inspired scripture; as far back as the 4th-century, St. Jerome felt morally compelled to refute what he plainly considered a heretical notion that the deuterocanonicals were not scriptural. 1,000 years later, with no historical basis to suppose so, Luther would teach that St. Jerome must have been tortured, but that is a self-defeating argument: If St. Jerome said what he did because of torture, that would only further the argument that to deny the canonicity of the deuterocanonical books was officially regarded as heresy by the 4th-century popes.

Finally, the issue as to whether certain early Christians felt that Jews should not be required to ascent to the deuterocanonicals as a requirement for conversion is quite beside the point. Regardless of evangelization tactics, those communities made extensive use of deuterocanonicals in their worship. The book of Wisdom, for instance, has been referred to since the first century during church lenten and Easter services, since it so vividly details the nature of the execution of Jesus Christ. So well, in fact, that anti-Catholic apologists asserted it couldn't possibly be authentic Old-Testament scripture, since its authors had to have witnessed the death of Jesus. And yet, manuscripts of it were found in the Qumran collections which predated Christ.


76 posted on 03/16/2006 12:38:36 PM PST by dangus
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To: dangus
Likewise, there are a few other "apocrypha" which historical records suggests have been used in certain liturgical contexts, although they possess no unique doctrine, such as 3 Maccabees, and "Psalm 151." They may be found in certain Orthodox and Coptic bibles, but are not typically reprinted in the Catholic bibles.

These along with the 3 Esdras you mention and 4 Esdras (which is used in the Requiem Mass for the chant "Reqiuem aeternum") are part of the appendix to the official Vulgate, if I have my books straight.

115 posted on 03/17/2006 9:43:28 AM PST by Hermann the Cherusker
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