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To: wmfights
Also, in reading John 6:53-54 I don't see anyone at the synagogue in Capernaum trying to actually eat the Messiah, or drink his blood as he stood there.

They weren't quite sure HOW Jesus was going to provide His flesh to eat. He answers His Apostles' questions on this at the Last Supper when He took a piece of bread in His hand and said "THIS IS my Body". They then, through faith, understood that by eating the bread, they were eating Christ. Certainly, they didn't fully understand this until after the Holy Spirit came to them on Pentecost. But we see another hint of this in the story of the disciples on the road to Emmaus. It was not until during the Breaking of the Bread (Eucharist) when the recognized the Lord. It is because we come closest to Him during the Eucharist - He abides in us.

BTW when did transubstantiation become dogma in the Roman Catholic Church?...etc.

Again, this is inconsequential. Here is why. When did the Church declare that Jesus was God as dogma? At the council of Nicea in 325 AD. Nearly 300 years after Christ's death, correct? Does that mean that the Church DID NOT already believe this? Of course it did! Jesus was worshiped during the liturgy. People prayed to Him during their daily prayers and through their actions. The Church already KNEW that Jesus was God - the Church DEFINES that He was God infallibly based on the guidance of the Spirit ALREADY AT WORK in the Church. The Church defines dogma to authoritative say what we believe, just like it did with the contents of Scripture. The Church already had a good idea of what it was, but now, they had an authoritative decision. Same with all of your other questions.

I would love to see your SCRIPTURAL basis for these positions the Roman Church takes.

You have been on FR for well over a year. You have certainly seen all the arguments... If you are seriously open to Catholicism and what it believes, then I will address it. Otherwise, I have no intention of writing several pages to a person who has no intention of considering our point of view. There are other people more open to God's Word that I can approach. Did Christ continue to argue with the Pharisees after they were proven to be closed-minded?

Regards

986 posted on 02/19/2006 9:31:42 AM PST by jo kus
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To: jo kus; wmfights
I would love to see your SCRIPTURAL basis for these positions the Roman Church takes.

Don't hold your breath - there is no scriptural basis for much of this mythology.  The early years of Christianity was marked by a battle with paganism and the early Church theologians understood that what they were fighting was not standing armies, but the spiritual hosts of darkness, paganism.  The early Church understood the nature of the Lord's supper as shown below.  As pagan custom crept into the Roman Church, beginning during the Constantine era, the ritual of transubstantiation crept in.

Justin Martyr (110-165 AD)

"Now it is evident, that in this prophecy allusion is made to the bread which our Christ gave us to eat, in remembrance of His being made flesh for the sake of His believers, for whom also He suffered; and to the cup which He gave us to drink, in remembrance of His own blood, with giving of thanks."   Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, cap. lxx

Tatian (110-172 AD)

"...It is not we who eat human flesh - they among you who assert such a thing have been suborned as false witnesses; it is among you that Pelops is made a supper for the gods, although beloved by Poseidon, and Kronos devours his children, and Zeus swallows Metis."  Tatian, Address to the Greeks, cap. xxv

Theophilus of Antioch (115-181 AD)

"Nor indeed was there any necessity for my refuting these, except that I see you still in dubiety about the word of the truth. For though yourself prudent, you endure fools gladly. Otherwise you would not have been moved by senseless men to yield yourself to empty words, and to give credit to the prevalent rumor wherewith godless lips falsely accuse us, who are worshippers of God, and are called Christians, alleging that the wives of us all are held in common and made promiscuous use of; and that we even commit incest with our own sisters, and, what is most impious and barbarous of all, that we eat human flesh."  Theophilus, To Autolycus, Lib. III, cap. iv

Eusebius (260-341 AD)

"And there was one energy of the Divine Spirit pervading all the members, and one soul in all, and the same eagerness of faith, and one hymn from all in praise of the Deity. Yea, and perfect services were conducted by the prelates, the sacred rites being solemnized, and the majestic institutions of the Church observed, here with the singing of psalms and with the reading of the words committed to us by God, and there with the performance of divine and mystic services; and the mysterious symbols of the Saviour's passion were dispensed. At the same time people of every age, both male and female, with all the power of the mind gave honor unto God, the author of their benefits, in prayers and thanksgiving, with a joyful mind and soul. And every one of the bishops present, each to the best of his ability, delivered panegyric orations, adding luster to the assembly."  Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, Lib. X, cap. iii-iv

987 posted on 02/19/2006 10:25:24 AM PST by gscc
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To: jo kus
"I have no intention of writing several pages to a person who has no intention of considering our point of view."
________________________________________
In reading these threads and checking SCRIPTURE against the various positions taken it is the Roman Catholic posters that seem to be the one's with the closed minds.

Ask yourself if you would honestly consider your church to be wrong or fallible when seeing its positions contradicted by SCRIPTURE? The most common response I've seen is "Tradition" or the "Magisterium" resolved that. As a Christian I rely on SCRIPTURE to guide me.

Regards to you as well
1,000 posted on 02/19/2006 12:28:13 PM PST by wmfights (Lead, Follow, or Get out of the Way!)
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