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You stated in your " disclosure" that you had succumbed to the lies of the Navigators. To lie is to intend to deceive this implies that they knew that what they told you was not so and did it anyway. Do you actually believe that? I do not believe that the serious Catholics here are lying. I believe that we both see the evidence of reality and Scripture and come away with different takes. Someone has to be wrong on the issues that are absolute. But to say they lied to you shows no charity, and will repel those trying to engage in discussion about points, both doctrinal and theological.

I believe you did get the two of us confused. LOL

I also believe your post did not accurately reflect what I said, On a personal note, there is one thing you need to recognize: I had a horrible catechesis as a child and fell victim to a group of Navigators while living in a college dorm. As a result of this, I fell into the trap of being in various fundamentalist/evangelical groups for years.

You will please note that I clearly did not use nor imply the term 'liar.' I stated that I fell victim to a group of Navigators.

I later on stated the following: And, of course, when I actually understood the doctrine, I found that most of what I was deceived with first, by the Navigators, and secondly, by a host of various fundamentalist/evangelical groups, were based on rather transparent lies.

You will again note that I did not call either the Navigators nor 'various fundamentalist/evangelical groups' either liars or deceivers.

Having said that, the anti-Catholic rhetoric they spewed was 99% based on lies, distortions, and deceptions. But that is not the same as an accusation of them being liars, distorters, or deceivers. On the contrary, I actually believe both those groups I was involved with for a few years, and my anti-Catholic FReeper colleagues, are all very sincere and are truly concerned with the souls of those of us who are in the historic, apostolic Church.

A person could be brought up to use the word 'Green' when he sees the color the rest of us call 'Blue.' He can be very adamant about the fact that he is seeing 'Green' -- but that doesn't stop him from being wrong and propagating a lie -- he just doesn't realize that it's a lie he's propagating. A child, raised as a member of the Soviet Nomenklatura, could believe that his way of life is the truth...even fight a war over it...the person would actually be the sincerest person in the world, but what this child of the old Soviet elite would be fighting for would still be a lie.

I believe that Jack Chick, Bob Jones, Ian Paisley, et al, are all very sincere people. I am confident that they believe they are doing the Lord's work. But I also know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the information they spread is false (i.e., a lie). So, although Jack Chick, Bob Jones, Ian Paisley, et al, are not liars, if I believe the crap they spew, I have been deceived. Further, what I was deceived with were lies.

Does that make it a bit clearer for you?