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To: wmfights
You are no where near as prideful as most of the Roman Catholics that are posting on this thread.

Hm. Thank you, for it is a constant fear of mine that the pride I hold for my glorious Church might come across as prideful conceit.

the idea that your church controls the HOLY SPIRIT based on whether or not your members follow your rituals is inconsistent with the teachings of JESUS and his life.

The Church does not "control" the baptism. This is one salvific sacrament that does not require ordained clergy. The baptism is, however, necessary for salvation in general and for the gift of the Holy Ghost in particular:

3 Jesus answered, and said to him: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born again? 5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(John 3)

38 But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost

(Acts 2)

Baptism is connected to understanding of Scripture as well, as we've seen in the Eunuch episode. Of course, the separate sacrament of confirmation had not been formed yet in apostolic times, since mostly adults were baptized. However, anointing is connected with spiritual and intellectual strength as well as physical health throughout the Gospel. For example, when Christ is asked to teach in the synagogue, he reads from Isaiah:

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me. Wherefore he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor, he hath sent me to heal the contrite of heart,
19 To preach deliverance to the captives, and sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of reward.
20 And when he had folded the book, he restored it to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him.
21 And he began to say to them: This day is fulfilled this scripture in your ears.

(Luke 4)

You proceed to make a different argument, that of the role of grace and works. It does not seem to connect to the necessity of the sacraments issue, -- perhaps you can show me the connection, or is it someting you want to discuss as a new topic?

2,222 posted on 02/28/2006 10:45:19 AM PST by annalex
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To: annalex
"You proceed to make a different argument, that of the role of grace and works."

No because you are justified by FAITH and once justified the HOLY SPIRIT indwells you. The key phrase in Acts 2:38 is REPENT. Repentance is a recognition of your fallen state and need of JESUS CHRIST in order to be saved.

In the Roman Catholic Church you believe you can lose your justification (GOD'S GRACE) if you don't adhere to your sacraments. Thus, the church "controls" your justification.
2,243 posted on 02/28/2006 4:44:05 PM PST by wmfights (Lead, Follow, or get out of the Way!)
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