Replies

"Your church keeps putting people between your parishioners and the LORD."

That's correct, the Church has many people who point Parishioners and others toward the Lord, and has since the time of the Apostles.

""Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." (John 20: 21-23)"

"You have an interesting take on this passage. I don't see where JESUS says to the Apostles "and all future priests of the Roman Church will also have this power."

You're absolutely correct, wmfights, and there are a number of reasons for this. First of all, the Sacrament of reconciliation is not limited to Roman Catholicism. The Eastern Orthodox have also been given the Sacrament of Reconciliation as well, as we comprised one Church for the first thousand years after Christ.

Secondly, this verse does not say that all priests in perpetuity have the ability to forgive sins, just as you say. It does say, however that the Apostles were given the ability to forgive and to retain sins, and that the Apostles were sent by Christ in the same sense that Christ was sent by the Father. Christ choose His Apostles to lead His Church in His name.

“Now it came to pass in those days that Jesus went up to the mountain to pray and continued all night in prayer to God, and when it was day, He called His disciples to Him and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles” (Luke 6:12,13)

Today's bishops, eparchs, and patriarchs of the Catholic and Orthodox Church are the successors of the Apostles.

Christ uniquely entrusted the Apostles with a number of functions that were not given to everyone else. This includes the Sacrament of the Eucharist:

And when the hour came, he sat at table, and the apostles with him. And he said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer; for I tell you I shall not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God." And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, "Take this, and divide it among yourselves; for I tell you that from now on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes." And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me." And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood. (Luke 22: 14-20)

It also includes the Great Commission particularly the charge to teach all that Christ commanded the Apostles:

Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And when they saw him they worshiped him; but some doubted. And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age." (Matt 28: 16-20)

Note that if there was not a way for the Apostles to delegate the responsibility of "teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you," then Christianity would only have been for the generations that lived during the time of the Apostles. They had to have successors for the great commission to be fulfilled and continued to the present day. While many were sent by Christ to Baptize and preach the Good News, only the 11 Apostles were given the unique commission of "teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you."

Another function uniquely entrusted to the Apostles was that of forgiving and retaining sins, that is, the Sacrament of Reconciliation:

"Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." (John 20: 21-23)"

Now we see that the Apostles were given unique responsibilities. If they were not capable of passing those responsibilities on to their successors, as Scripture indicates that they indeed did, then the Church would only have been the Church for the time of the Apostles. Just as we understand Christ's Apostles who were uniquely entrusted with the Commemoration of the Lord's supper to have delegated that responsibility to other specific people, so we can also understand that the ability to forgive and retain sins was passed on by them to their successors. Otherwise, it was only for the people living in the Apostolic times who's sins could be forgiven and retained by Christ's earthly representatives.

In essence, The Father sent the Son, the Son sent the Apostles in the same manner, and the Apostles sent their successors. The Bishops still have the practice of laying on of hands ordained to the priesthood, and they have maintained this link since the time of Christ. There is an unbroken chain from the men breathed on by Christ to the men ordained with a laying on of hands by today's bishops. Not all priests are commissioned to forgive sins, but only those whom the Bishops permit.

"As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." The Apostles are sent by Christ in the same fashion that He was sent by the Father. Christ breathes on the Apostles. As you are no doubt aware, this is only the second time in Scripture that God breathes on anyone, the other time being the moment of Adam's creation. Christ is the Head of the Church, and the Apostles are His Representatives on earth. Christ builds the Church upon them, so to speak.

You don't see Christ promising all future priests the ability to forgive and retain sins, but you do see Christ entrusting the Apostles with the deposit of the Faith.

“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you” (Matthew 28:19,20)

From there in Scripture we see the growth of that Church. Ministers are ordained and delegated to specific functions in continuity with the Apostolic Church and subject to the Authority of the Apostles. There is a definite Church Organization which is hierarchical, and which has the ability to establish the liturgy of worship and preside over it, rule on erroneous interpretations of Scripture, administer discipline, delegate authority, excommunicate, send official representatives, and establish new practices and disciplines. If there had been no Apostolic succession, there would have been no Bible, just a collection of Historical documents of unknown veracity. We believe that the Apostolic Church has the authority to determine that the New Testament was divinely inspired and rule on which books were part of the canon. Scripture nowhere says that the Letter to the Hebrews or the Letter to Philemon were inspired. We accept them based on Apostolic tradition. The Apostles and their successor were divinely inspired and their successors were guided by the Holy Spirit in making the decision on the canon. It takes no great leap of faith to move from that understanding to the understanding of the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

"I read this passage and see two possible explanations that I believe are more plausible; one, Jesus was empowering these Apostles with supernatural powers because they would be the catalysts for the initial body of believers;"

He indeed empowered the Apostles to lead His Church, and it's entirely possible that the power to raise the dead, cure the sick, cast out demons, was given as a sign of the authority that Christ had invested in the Apostles. The Apostles in turn appointed legitimate leaders to succeed themselves. Scripture demonstrates a definite Apostolic succession, it is not a free-for-all with every man being a law unto himself within the Church.

"two, having given them the HOLY SPIRIT they would be preaching the gospel and all who heard it and believed would be saved (sins forgiven) and all who didn't believe would not be saved."

Wmfights, everyone receives the Holy Spirit upon complete initiation into the the Body of Christ, but you and I do not have the ability to retain people's sins or forgive sins that have nothing to do with us. It says they have the ability to forgive sins, and to retain sins. This implies that they actually know what people's sins are, which in turn suggests that people are actually Confessing sins to them.

"In this sacrament doesn't the priest then mete out a punishment to the confessor."

No. First of all, the priest is the Confessor. This is what the priest does in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. He prays with us, hears our confession, assists us in our examination of conscience, discusses our difficulties and often offers counsel, and exhorts us to repentance. He then instructs us to say the Act of Contrition, and assigns a Penance. We accept the penance, and the priest says a prayer of praise and thanksgiving. I definitely don't regard Penance as a punishment, after all, it points us toward God. It might be reading Scripture, praying, or meditating on something in particular, such as your relationship to God or God's love for you. He may ask you to pray for people that you have hurt, or for people who have been injured by a sin such as the one you most struggled with. At the end of the confession, the priest then pronounces the words of Absolution, and blesses us in the Name of God.

"this verse does not say that all priests in perpetuity have the ability to forgive sins, just as you say. It does say, however that the Apostles were given the ability to forgive and to retain sins, and that the Apostles were sent by Christ in the same sense that Christ was sent by the Father. Christ choose His Apostles to lead His Church in His name."

If this interpretation is correct, I don't believe there is a SCRIPTURAL basis that these humans, empowered with supernatural powers, were given the ability to pass these powers on to whom they choose.
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"Today's bishops, eparchs, and patriarchs of the Catholic and Orthodox Church are the successors of the Apostles."

This is essentially where we diverge. These individuals may follow a long historical line, but they did not walk with JESUS when he was on the earth. They are not Apostles and I do not believe they were given supernatural powers when they became priests.
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"And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me." And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood." (Luke 22: 14-20)

I think the quote "do this in remembrance of me" is perfect illustration of how investing supernatural powers in your priesthood can lead to a body of believers being misled. In my faith we do not believe in transubstantiation. We partake of communion in remembrance of our LORD JESUS CHRIST.
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"Note that if there was not a way for the Apostles to delegate the responsibility of "teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you," then Christianity would only have been for the generations that lived during the time of the Apostles. They had to have successors for the great commission to be fulfilled and continued to the present day."

Is it possible that the SCRIPTURES exist for the very reason of teaching us? The SCRIPTURES existed well before they were canonized.

Obviously, we are looking at this differently. I do appreciate your reasoned responses without the typical put downs.