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To: wmfights
"If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." (John 20: 21-23)

You have an interesting take on this passage. I don't see where JESUS says to the Apostles "and all future priests of the Roman Church will also have this power."

Of course not, because then you'd see where you are lacking.

I read this passage and see two possible explanations that I believe are more plausible; one, Jesus was empowering these Apostles with supernatural powers because they would be the catalysts for the initial body of believers;

And Jesus knew that after the 1st century ended no one would need to have their sins forgiven? Confession of sins and absolution by an Apostle were sacraments, but only temporarily?

Upon this "dissipation of the Holy Spirit" theory much rests, on shaky ground.

two, having given them the HOLY SPIRIT they would be preaching the gospel and all who heard it and believed would be saved (sins forgiven) and all who didn't believe would not be saved. Maybe the charge to baptise all the nations is a metaphor, too?

In this sacrament doesn't the priest then mete out a punishment to the confessor.

"The confessor" is the priest. Kind of confusing terminology. The person seeking absolution is known as the "penitent."

The priest instructs the penitent what he needs to do to both demonstrate his repentence to God, grow in spirit, and to make right what he has set wrong.

You may consider this a punishment. If you confess to a priest that you robbed a bank, he will not give you absolution until you give the money back. Perhaps we can consider this a punishment. Jesus died for my sins, can't I keep the money?

SD

1,428 posted on 02/23/2006 7:45:49 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave
"If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." (John 20: 21-23)

You have an interesting take on this passage. I don't see where JESUS says to the Apostles "and all future priests of the Roman Church will also have this power."


Of course not, because then you'd see where you are lacking.

I read this passage and see two possible explanations that I believe are more plausible; one, Jesus was empowering these Apostles with supernatural powers because they would be the catalysts for the initial body of believers;

And Jesus knew that after the 1st century ended no one would need to have their sins forgiven? Confession of sins and absolution by an Apostle were sacraments, but only temporarily?


Well ... of course the believer can (i.e. is not prohibited from ...) ... requesting His forgiveness directly from God ... via prayer ... as Jesus modeled ...
Luke 11:1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.

2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

3 Give us day by day our daily bread.

4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
I also find it interesting that there is no example of sins being confessed to any priestly figure and/or priestly absolution given in the New Testament scriptures.

1,433 posted on 02/23/2006 8:28:22 AM PST by Quester
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To: SoothingDave
"If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." (John 20: 21-23)

You have an interesting take on this passage. I don't see where JESUS says to the Apostles "and all future priests of the Roman Church will also have this power."

Of course not, because then you'd see where you are lacking.

Here we go again, always the put down. If you are truly attempting apologetics it seems that constantly putting in your little shots is not going to promote discussion.
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"I read this passage and see two possible explanations that I believe are more plausible; one, Jesus was empowering these Apostles with supernatural powers because they would be the catalysts for the initial body of believers;

And Jesus knew that after the 1st century ended no one would need to have their sins forgiven? Confession of sins and absolution by an Apostle were sacraments, but only temporarily?"

How is it that I'm confident your being snide when you say "but only temporarily."

JESUS did not indicate this supernatural power would continue forever. Is it possible that THE LORD knew the SCRIPTURES would bring believers into a right relationship and as a result their sins would be forgive.
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"Maybe the charge to baptise all the nations is a metaphor, too?"

Thanks for your continued insightful comments and points of discussion.
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"The confessor" is the priest. Kind of confusing terminology. The person seeking absolution is known as the "penitent."

Granted I made an error in terminology, but was it really that tough to figure out. You just can't help yourself, your always seeking a way to put down the questioner unless of course they walk in lock step with you. In my church we don't have priests who claim special powers and we are always encouraged to go straight to the LORD.
1,447 posted on 02/23/2006 8:52:58 AM PST by wmfights (Lead, Follow, or get out of the Way!)
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