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Where Have All the Protestants Gone?
NOR ^ | January 2006 | Thomas Storck

Posted on 02/15/2006 6:22:47 AM PST by NYer

Has anyone noticed the almost complete disappearance of Protestants from our nation? "What!" I can hear my readers exclaim, "Storck has really gone off his rocker this time. Why, just down the street there's an Assembly of God church and two or three Baptist churches and the Methodists and so on. My cousin just left the Catholic Church to become a Protestant and my niece just married one. Moreover, evangelical Protestants have many media outlets of their own and they have great influence in the Bush Administration. They're everywhere." All this, of course, is true. Except that for some time, they no longer call themselves Protestants, but simply Christians, and increasingly they've gotten Catholics to go along with their terminology.

I recall over 10 years ago when I was a lector at Mass, for the prayer of the faithful I was supposed to read a petition that began, "That Catholics and Christians…." Of course, I inserted the word "other" before "Christians," but I doubt very many in the congregation would even have noticed had I not done so. Just the other day I saw on a Catholic website an article about a Protestant adoption agency that refused to place children with Catholic parents. The headline referred not to a Protestant adoption agency but to a Christian one. And how often do we hear of Christian bookstores or Christian radio stations or Christian schools, when everyone should know they are Protestant ones?

Now, what is wrong with this? Well, it should be obvious to any Catholic -- but probably isn't. Are only Protestants Christians? Are we Catholics not Christians, indeed the true Christians? About 30 years ago, Protestants, especially evangelicals, began to drop the term Protestant and call themselves simply Christians as a not too subtle means of suggesting that they are the true and real Christians, rather than simply the children of the breakaway Protestant revolt of the 16th century. This shift in Protestant self-identification has taken on increasingly dramatic proportions. A recent Newsweek survey (Aug. 29-Sept. 5, 2005) found that, between 1990 and 2001, the number of Americans who consider themselves "Christian" (no denomination) increased by 1,120 percent, while the number of those who self-identify as "Protestant" decreased by 270 percent.

But perhaps I am getting too worked up over a small matter. After all, are not Protestants also Christians? Yes, I do not deny that. But usually we call something by its most specific name.

Protestants are theists too, but it would surely sound odd if we were to refer to their radio stations and bookstores as theistic radio stations and theistic bookstores. Language, in order to be useful, must convey human thought and concepts in as exact a way as it can. And, in turn, our thoughts and concepts should reflect reality. As Josef Pieper noted, "if the word becomes corrupted, human existence will not remain unaffected and untainted."

Moreover, words often convey more than simple concepts. A certain word may seem only to portray reality, but in fact it does more. It adds a certain overtone and connotation. Thus, it is not a small matter whether we speak of "gays" or of homosexuals. The former term was chosen specifically to inculcate acceptance of an unnatural and immoral way of life. When I was an Episcopalian, I was careful never to speak of the Catholic Church, but of the Roman Catholic Church, as a means of limiting the universality of her claims. I always called Episcopal ministers priests, again as a means of affirming that such men really were priests, in opposition to Leo XIII's definitive judgment that Anglican orders are invalid and thus that they are in no sense priests. Perhaps because of these early experiences, I am very aware of the uses of language to prejudge and control arguments, and I am equally careful now never to call Episcopal ministers priests or refer to one as Father So-and-So. And I think we should likewise not go along with the evangelical Protestant attempt to usurp the name Christian for themselves. They are Protestants, and public discourse should not be allowed to obscure that fact.

Apparently, though, it is the case that some Protestants call themselves Christians, not out of a desire to usurp the term, but out of an immense ignorance of history. That is, they ignore history to such an extent that they really don't understand that they are Protestants. Knowing or caring little about what came before them, they act as if their nicely bound Bibles had fallen directly from Heaven and anyone could simply become a Christian with no reference to past history, ecclesiology, or theology. The period of time between the conclusion of the New Testament book of Acts and the moment that they themselves "accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior" means nothing. Even Luther or Calvin or John Wesley mean little to them, since they can pick up their Bibles and start Christianity over again any time they want. These souls may call themselves simply Christians in good faith, but they are largely ignorant of everything about Church history. They do not understand that Jesus Christ founded a Church, and that He wishes His followers to join themselves to that Church at the same time as they join themselves to Him. In fact, one implies and involves the other, since in Baptism we are incorporated in Christ and made members of His Church at the same time.

So let us not go along with the widespread practice of calling our separated brethren simply Christians. They are Protestants. Let us begin again to use that term. It is precise. It implies Catholic doctrine in the sense that it suggests that such people are in protest against the Church. Moreover, it forces them to define themselves in terms of, rather than independently of, the One True Church. And if we do resume referring to our separated brethren as Protestants, perhaps a few of them might even be surprised enough to ask us why -- and then, behold, a teachable moment!


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Ecumenism; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; History; Mainline Protestant; Ministry/Outreach; Religion & Culture; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: abortion; branson; catholics; christians; churchhistory; contraception; protestants
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To: OLD REGGIE
It's much easier to simply lay out all the "Jameses" in the Bible and ask which one is supposed to be Joseph's son.

It's much easier to simply lay out all the "brothers" in the Bible and ask which one(s) are supposed to be "blood brothers", "friends", members of an affinity group, "kin",or "cousins".

Don't have an answer? Which James is the son of Joseph and when does he gain admittance to the Apostles and what does he do with the other James (we know Herod killed James the Greater)?

I guess I wasn't exhaustive enough. Let's go straight to the text. Bible Gateway

1 Matthew 4:21 And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them.

This is James the greater, son of Zebedee, brother of John. This is a no brainer. Note how This James is often paired with John in the future, to avoid confusion.

2 Matthew 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;

James the Greater, son of Zebedee.

3 Matthew 10:3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;

James the Lesser, son of Alphaeus.

4 Matthew 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

The disputed James in question. Either, by "plain English" the son of Joseph and half-brother of Jesus or James the Lesser, kin of Jesus. Note the names of the other kin: Joses, Simon and Judas.

5 Matthew 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

James the Greater. His brother being John is a clue.

6 Matthew 27:56 Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedees children.

Mary here is either the mother of James the Lesser, who has a brother named Joses, or this reference to the Mother of the Lord is made in a cryptic roundabout fashion.

7 Mark 1:19 And when he had gone a little farther thence, he saw James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, who also were in the ship mending their nets.

James the Greater

8 Mark 1:29 And forthwith, when they were come out of the synagogue, they entered into the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John.

James and John. Ergo, James the Greater.

9 Mark 3:17 And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder:

Ditto.

10 Mark 3:18 And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite,

James the Lesser, son of Alphaeus.

11 Mark 5:37 And he suffered no man to follow him, save Peter, and James, and John the brother of James.

James the Greater. Brother John.

12 Mark 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

James the Lesser, same as #4 above.

13 Mark 9:2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.

James the Greater. Brother John.

14 Mark 10:35 And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire

Ditto.

15 Mark 10:41 And when the ten heard it, they began to be much displeased with James and John.

Ditto.

16 Mark 13:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,

Ditto.

17 Mark 14:33 And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy;

Ditto.

18 Mark 15:40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;

Mary here is clearly the mother of James the less (and his brother Joses). This passage mirrors the one given above in number 6 and makes it clear that this Mary is the mother of James the Lesser.

19 Mark 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

Same women. Still mother of James the Lesser.

20 Luke 5:10 And so was also James, and John, the sons of Zebedee, which were partners with Simon. And Jesus said unto Simon, Fear not; from henceforth thou shalt catch men.

James the Greater.

21 Luke 6:14 Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew,

Ditto.

22 Luke 6:14 Luke 6:15 Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes

James the Lesser

23 Luke 6:16 And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.

Who has a brother named Judas? Both James the Lesser and our mystery James, son of Joseph.

24 Luke 8:51 And when he came into the house, he suffered no man to go in, save Peter, and James, and John, and the father and the mother of the maiden.

James and John. Gotta be James the Greater.

25 Luke 9:28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.

John and James. The Greater.

26 Luke 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

Ditto.

27 Luke 24:10 It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.

Another one of those "ambiguous" passages where this Mary is either the Mother of Jesus the Lord but mentioned only as the mother of James, or this refers to Mary the mother of James the Lesser, a comopletely different person.

28 Acts 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.

Both Jameses. No mystery appearance by the third "James the Brother of the Lord" who suddenly takes over the Church in Jerusalem, according to Protestant legend.

29 Acts 12:2 And he killed James the brother of John with the sword.

James the Greater dies in Acts 12.

30 Acts 12:17 But he, beckoning unto them with the hand to hold their peace, declared unto them how the Lord had brought him out of the prison. And he said, Go shew these things unto James, and to the brethren. And he departed, and went into another place.

James the Lesser is still alive. Must be him. Unless you hold to the theory that suddenly and without warning he is written out of the story at this point and replaced by a son of Joseph without notice.

31 Acts 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

Ditto.

32 Acts 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.

Ditto.

33 1 Corinthians 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

James an apostle is mentioned. This is either the surviving Apostle, James the Lesser, or some new character.

34 Galatians 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

"James the Lord's brother" makes his one and only appearance in Scripture. Is this a new character?

35 Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

Paul mentions James again, along with other Apostles. No attempt is made to explain what happened to James the Lesser.

36 Galatians 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

Ditto.

37 James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

James fails to mention that Jesus is his brother. Seems odd.

38 Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

Jude is a brother of James. Just like James the Lesser.

And that's it. 38 mentions of "James" in the Scriptures. Most are comopletely unambiguous. Now, there are two competing theories on the rest of the references.

#1. James the Lesser, son of Alphaeus, brother of Judas, brother of Joses is a relative of Jesus's earthly family and is in this way referred to as a "brother" of Jesus. He also has a mother named Mary, but not the same mother as Jesus.

#2. James, a son of Joseph and Mary, is a half-blood brother of Jesus. He is mentioned in a list of Jesus's "brothers" early in his ministry and then disappears from the narrative until sometime around Penetecost and the death of James the Greater.

At this time, he displaces James the Lesser into oblivion and takes control of the fledgling Church at Jerusalem, immediately being put into a position of control. All based on having a common mother with Jesus, and not based upon his being an Apostle of Jesus prior to His death and Resurrection, or being privy to any of the secret conversations Jesus had with his disciples.

(And we are the ones who elevate Mary!)

Furthermore, one must believe it strict coincidence that James the Lesser has a mother named Mary and a brother named Joses.

And we must believe that the importance of James the brother of the Lord is so great that one refers to his mother, the Virgin Mary, the mother of Jesus, the woman who bore God Incarnate in her womb, as "the mother of James and Joses."

SD

2,061 posted on 02/27/2006 5:25:43 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave
logic working for it.

Logic means avoiding the fact that the Bible says Mary and Joseph had sex?

2,062 posted on 02/27/2006 5:26:47 PM PST by Full Court (Keepers at home, do you think it's optional?)
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To: annalex
The Holy Spirit was given the Apostles only (John 15:26-27, John 20:21, Acts 2), and they alone were commissioned to preach the gospel to the world (Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, John 21).

didn't Jesus send out 70 one time? 12 apostles and 58 what?

2,063 posted on 02/27/2006 5:27:27 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: annalex

keep talking. Its actually mildly entertaining pointing out all the inconsistencies.


2,064 posted on 02/27/2006 5:30:41 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: annalex

That is a total misunderstanding of scripture. In II Peter 1:20 Peter is stating that scripture does not come from man, but from God. Check the entire context, especially vs 21.


2,065 posted on 02/27/2006 5:33:44 PM PST by tenn2005 (Birth is merly an event; it is the path walked that becomes one's life.)
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To: annalex
The Holy Spirit was given the Apostles only (John 15:26-27, John 20:21, Acts 2), ...

Afraid not ...

From Paul's letter to the church at Corinth ...
1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

2,066 posted on 02/27/2006 5:38:28 PM PST by Quester
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To: Invincibly Ignorant

There were more than the Apostles in the Upper Room, yes. Yet, the promise of the Paraclete is only given to the Twelve, as is clear from John 15. Unless Christ changed His mind and no one told us, we have to assume that the Eleven and possibly Our Lady received the Holy Ghost at Pentecost, and no one else.


2,067 posted on 02/27/2006 5:42:32 PM PST by annalex
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To: annalex
There were more than the Apostles in the Upper Room, yes. Yet, the promise of the Paraclete is only given to the Twelve, as is clear from John 15. Unless Christ changed His mind and no one told us, we have to assume that the Eleven and possibly Our Lady received the Holy Ghost at Pentecost, and no one else.

And so 58 of the 70 were doing what? Can you stop with everything always being "clear"? If everything were always "clear" we wouldn't be having this discussion.

2,068 posted on 02/27/2006 5:45:47 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: tenn2005
Well, this is the relevant scripture:
20 Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.
21 For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.

(2 Peter 1)

Indeed the scripture has its origin in God, but it is given us by inspired "holy men". We are not to interpret it privately. Plain language, folks.

2,069 posted on 02/27/2006 5:46:08 PM PST by annalex
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To: Quester

No question, a Catholic receives the Holy Ghost through the sacraments of the Church, and from that point on the Holy Ghost resides in us, as St. Paul indicates.


2,070 posted on 02/27/2006 5:47:59 PM PST by annalex
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To: annalex

Wrong again, but then that has come to be expected.


2,071 posted on 02/27/2006 5:48:52 PM PST by tenn2005 (Birth is merly an event; it is the path walked that becomes one's life.)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant

When it is clear, I say "clear". When it is not clear, at least to some not familiar with the Greek original, I explain.

The 58 were listening in amazement.


2,072 posted on 02/27/2006 5:49:24 PM PST by annalex
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To: annalex
Indeed the scripture has its origin in God, but it is given us by inspired "holy men".

Who gets to declare who the Holy men were? When I see people proclaim anti-semites church fathers such as St. John Chrystendom as "holy" men, I cringe.

2,073 posted on 02/27/2006 5:49:49 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: tenn2005

Got a different letter?


2,074 posted on 02/27/2006 5:49:59 PM PST by annalex
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
Who gets to declare who the Holy men were?

St. Peter, of course. After all, he wrote the letter.

2,075 posted on 02/27/2006 5:50:49 PM PST by annalex
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To: annalex
The 58 were listening in amazement.

Kind of like most of us in here are doing. :-)

2,076 posted on 02/27/2006 5:50:56 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: annalex
After all, he wrote the letter.

You sure about that?

2,077 posted on 02/27/2006 5:52:03 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: Invincibly Ignorant

Indeed. I often wonder how when I speak in English everyone understands.


2,078 posted on 02/27/2006 5:52:09 PM PST by annalex
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
Looks that way. This is who we get bishops from to this day.
***

It is a lot of fun, but I've got to leave. A rivederci, brethren.

2,079 posted on 02/27/2006 5:55:20 PM PST by annalex
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To: annalex
Looks that way. This is who we get bishops from to this day.

Ya but I doubt that pointy hat is his legacy. :-)

2,080 posted on 02/27/2006 5:57:01 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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