Where Have All the Protestants Gone?

NOR ^ | January 2006 | Thomas Storck

[Cronos]

All Christians make up that universal church.

Not all those who use the label "Protestant" or "Evangelical" or "Pentecostal" or "inter/non-denominational" are Christians.

Unitarians and Mormons are some extreme examples, but there are many la-di-dah groups that are not Christian. Most people who's teachings do not follow the Apostolic Church (i.e. the teachings from the Assyrian, Armenian, Coptic, Syrian, Eastern Orthodox, Chaldean Catholic, Maronite Catholic, Roman / Latin Catholic, Syrian Catholic etc. Churchs) are not Christian in the true sense as their beliefs are not Christian. There are many groups that take the Bible as a Holy Book but are not Christian -- the Mormons and Muslimes for example

[Cronos]

What standard or authority is used?

God.

[Cronos]

However, unlike Islam, which teaches that Mohammed was nothing more than a dictation machine writing what Allah specifically told him word for word, we say that the humans involved in Scripture really were inspired by God, but wrote in their own way, and in their own style.

very well put.

[Cronos]

FC -- you pull quotes with no linkage to the original question or statement and with little of no linkage to the other little snippets that you post. the Bible is not a book of quotes which you just put here and there with no respect to the context, to the overall meaning of the word. Why do you think I brought up the point about Paul saying that the wife should submit to her husband? Take that one liner and you will rile most women, even non-feminists. however, read the ENTIRE passage and Paul puts the onus on BOTH husband and wife as EQUAL partners -- he urges husbands to treat the wife as part of his own body. This EQUALITY would be in complete contradiction to that one-liner inference.

[Clay+Iron_Times]

I appreciate your concern for my soul. Certainly God's Word is true, and we all want to follow it. Can you show me where the Bible explicitly prohibits the Baptism of infants?

The formal dedication of my baby daughter to God, was taking responsibility before God to bring her up in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Baptism of a baby is not understood by the baby. Baptism symbolizes the believer's identification with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection: "we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead...we also should walk in newness of life" (Rom 6:4).

Canon 849: "Baptism, the gate to the sacraments, necessary for salvation in fact or at least in intention, by which men and women are freed from their sins, are reborn as children of God and, configured to Christ..."

Galatians 3:26 You are all children of God by Faith in Christ Jesus.

I am aware that Rome teaches "faith," but this statement of the Canon is not unrepresentative of her belief that baptism is the entrance requirement. Since it is administered to infants, personal faith and repentance are not considered as vital as this outward act. (see also Canon 204.)

Listen to what Paul says to the Corinthians

1 Corinthians 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Cripus and Gaius (if Water Baptism were essential to Salvation, as some claim, I hardly think Paul would have blatantly announced that he had only baptized a few, as he did here)

1 Corinthians 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name (nothing must be done to draw away allegiance from Christ)

1 Corinthians 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas; besides, I know not whether I baptized any other(informs us that the inspiration of the Apostles in writing the Scriptures involved none of the mechanical infallibility ascribed to them by popular dogma)

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize(presents to us a Cardinal Truth), but to preach the Gospel (the manner in which one may be saved from sin): not with the wisdom of words (intellectualism is not the Gospel), lest the Cross of Christ should be made of none effect (this tells us in no uncertain terms that the Cross of Christ must always be the emphasis of the Message.

The Conversion of The Jailer

Acts 16:30 And brought them out (brought Paul and Silas out of the prison), and said, Sir's, what must I do to be saved?(This presents terminology that shows some familiarity with the Gospel; quite possible before the arrest of the Apostle, the jailer had heard him preach)

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved (presents the most beautiful explanation of Salvation that could ever be given), and your house (means that Salvation is not limited merely to the jailer, but is available to the entirety of his family as well, that is if they will meet the conditions of Faith in Christ required of them)

Acts 16:32 And they spoke unto him the Word of the Lord (pertained to fleshing out of the answer given in the previous Verse, explaining what believing in Christ really meant), and to all that were in his house

Acts 16:33 And he (the jailer) took them (Paul and Silas) the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes (speaks of the terrible beating they had suffered a short time before); and was baptized, he and all his, straight away

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ (refers to the Baptism into His Death at Calvary [Romans 6:3-5]; the reference is not to Water Baptism) have put on Christ (means to be clothed with Him [John 14:20])

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (this proclaims an end of all class, status, and social distinction. This phrase alone answers all racism)

Galatians 3:29 And if you be Christ's, then are you Abraham's seed (Christ is Abraham's seed, so my union with Christ makes me Abraham's seed as well), and heirs according to the Promise (heirs of God, and joint heirs with Jesus Christ [Romans 8:17])

[InterestedQuestioner]

Hello Clay+Iron_Times,

Thank you for your wonderful post. I appreciate your posts, and there are a number of points related to religion that I would like to address. First, however, I'd really like to find out a little more about your work.

"An ROV (Remote Observation Vehicle)Vessel in the Gulf of Mexico. The ROV has a 16,000 foot umbilical to dive with, so we can dive that deep."

Ok, James Bond has nothing on you. This is the most interesting job of anybody I've met on FR, and would make a good thread of its own. I bet you get questions about this all the time, but I just have to ask a few, hopefully I'm not putting you on the spot.

Does Remote Observation Vehicle mean that you are actually in the Vehicle when it descends, or is it an unmanned Robot that you control from the launching ship?

"The ROV has a 16,000 foot umbilical to dive with, so we can dive that deep."

I assume an umbilical means that the vehicle is tethered to a ship on the surface by a strong cable and electrical supply. So you can go about a third of a mile under water. What lives that far down?

"Most of the work since September of 2005 consisted of the Katrina and Rita damage investigation, been real busy to say the least."

So, you're looking for damage under water? What sort of damage is that? Are you talking about damage to man made structures, or is this for ecological investigations? Can a hurricane cause damage 1600 feet under the sea? If so, how severe?

"I provide the acoustic tracking and navigation for both surface positioning(DGPS) and sub-sea acoustic positioning USBL."

Do you use acoustic tracking because you can't track visually at those depths? I assume in colder waters that it's very dark at 1600 feet. Is that the case in the Gulf of Mexico?

Do you ever take the ROV into fresh water? If you're at 1600 feet depth in the Gulf of Mexico, how far out from the shore does that put you?

Hmmm. I feel like pinging all the homeschoolers to this thread so the kids can log on and ask you questions.

[InterestedQuestioner]

Ping to a very interestng post referenced at # 1406. I'm guessing some of you guys might be very interested in this.

[Dewy]

"Not all those who use the label "Protestant" or "Evangelical" or "Pentecostal" or "inter/non-denominational" are Christians.

Unitarians and Mormons are some extreme examples, but there are many la-di-dah groups that are not Christian. Most people who's teachings do not follow the Apostolic Church (i.e. the teachings from the Assyrian, Armenian, Coptic, Syrian, Eastern Orthodox, Chaldean Catholic, Maronite Catholic, Roman / Latin Catholic, Syrian Catholic etc. Churchs) are not Christian in the true sense as their beliefs are not Christian. There are many groups that take the Bible as a Holy Book but are not Christian -- the Mormons and Muslimes for example

I was not referring to religion, the subject was Christian.

Religion will carry a person straight to hell. Sad to say millions are depending on their religion or church for salvation.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

There are millions in "church" the "institution" and still not be part of the "Organism body of Christ".

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

[Conservative til I die]

The two sacraments taught in SCRIPTURE, baptism and communion, involve ALL of the FAITHFUL.

But all of the faithful are not eligible at all times to celebrate the Communion or Eucharist. Those in a state of mortal sin can't in our Church, in accordance with the words of St. Paul (1 Cor 11:26-27).

Sacramentalism is not about some sort of political equality. No one has a Constitutional right to them. That a woman is not eligible for Holy Orders does not somehow negate the sacramental system. And participatign in the Eucharist 3 times a week does not necessarily make you more holy than a person who takes it once every 2 weeks.

[Conservative til I die]

There are many groups that take the Bible as a Holy Book but are not Christian -- the Mormons and Muslimes for example

Throw in Jehovah's Witnesses (modern Arians), Christian Scientists, and Oneness Pentecostals (modern modalists) among others.

[Tax-chick]

That is very interesting! Do you ever see the giant catfish as big as a van that some other FReepers with underwater jobs have mentioned?

[InterestedQuestioner]

"Let me take this opportunity to say I enjoy being on this forum, and I rarely frequent any other subject matter besides religion."

I enjoy your posts, Clay+Iron_Times. I've very much appreciated your Scripture selections in the past, and the comments you make on those Scriptures.

"Emotions sometimes can run high as a testament to this thread but I do feel deeply committed conveying The Word of God."

Yes, we're mostly red-blooded American Christians, and we get pretty fired up over religion. That's fine, we're all passionate about our faith, and no one on the religion forum is going to be accused of being luke-warm. It's good to be polite to each other, but frankly, the heated discussions have a way of putting the issues on the table in a hurry. As long as we're being honest, it's all good. These discussion force us to think clearly and make us better informed. "Be angry, but don't let the sun go down on your anger...."

"Titanites and others... SoothingDave ...."Soothing"..Dave? I hope that places a smile on his face because I am just kidding...But is he kidding? :))No a little caustic now and then is okay, Im alright with it"


I have a tremendous amount of respect for those two posters. They are very concise and tend to get right to the essential issues. They are knowledgeable, and I would certainly go to them with questions. I'm new to watching their posts, but I've notice they don't obfuscate, they don't evade questions, and they don't change the subject to avoid difficult topics. They don't create strawmen in order to deflect criticism, and they don't try to paint anyone into a corner. Another thing I've noticed is that they don't attack anyone else's religion. That's pretty impressive, when you consider that the questions they are addressing can be challenging and sometimes quite hostile. You don't see them try to belittle or misrepresent other people's religion to cover up for their own weaknesses. Basically, Clay+Iron_Times, they are not so much debating as trying to explain what they believe. They will question the sincerity of some questions and even some posters, and I see that as entirely appropriate. Some of the statements being made to them are not very nice, and it's good to figure out who has a sincere difference of opinion, and who is just wasting everyone's time. It keeps the conversations productive and meaningful.

Also, I would be a much better poster if I had half of Soothing Dave's patience. You will see him engage half a dozen skeptical or even openly hostile posters and keep his cool while explaining his Faith. It's can be pretty tough to sit back and defend your faith against hostile questioners, and It would be much easier to go into offensive mode. I can assure you, many people's religious belief, if they were clearly exposited, would not stand up to the amount of scrutiny you see Soothing Dave work through. He's extremely good at keeping his cool and just answering questions very directly.

FR is a great forum and it brings together a lot of Christians who have historically not had a lot of dialog. I've learned a tremendous amount from this forum.

"Question.. When any of you are about to logon...do you get a certain height of anxiety and anticipation built up.. Oh no.. I've got a new post! Sometimes I just relax and read the subject matter with no interaction. Other times I cannot let it go, I must post and wait for those red letters to come up. :-)"

Some people approach the forum as a debate, and others approach it as a discussion. Sometimes it's good to ask well-informed posters to check our work and see if what we are saying makes good sense. It's an excellent place to learn to explain beliefs to a critical audience, and the critical nature of the forum can help us work through difficult concepts.

Alright, I have to get to work, and you've addressed another post to me on Baptism, so I'm going to try to get to that. BTW, don't be offended if you see see me lose my composure, I just don't have Soothing Dave's patience or cool.

[Conservative til I die]

I was not referring to religion, the subject was Christian. Religion will carry a person straight to hell. Sad to say millions are depending on their religion or church for salvation.

Um, hate to blow your mind so early in the morning, but Christianity is a religion, no matter what denomination you belong to or whether you even belong to a denomination.

re·li·gion
Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
n.

Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

[InterestedQuestioner]

"That is very interesting! Do you ever see the giant catfish as big as a van that some other FReepers with underwater jobs have mentioned?"

How many Freepers have underwater jobs????

"A cat fish the size of a grizzly bear"

Notable quotes:

"I'm thrilled that we've set a new record, but we need to put this discovery in context: these giant fish are uniformly poorly studied and some are critically endangered. Some, like the Mekong giant catfish, face extinction,"

"The fish was caught and eaten in a remote village in Thailand along the Mekong River......"

[Tax-chick]

How many Freepers have underwater jobs?

I don't know. There's a giant-catfish thread about once a year, and people who have worked underwater will turn up with stories.

[InterestedQuestioner]

"There's a giant-catfish thread about once a year, and people who have worked underwater will turn up with stories."

LOL. I haven't hit my one year anniversery date yet, and haven't seen that thread. I'll have to keep my eyes open.

[Tax-chick]

You could do a keyword search on "catfish" and possibly find some old ones.

[SoothingDave]

Also, I would be a much better poster if I had half of Soothing Dave's patience. You will see him engage half a dozen skeptical or even openly hostile posters and keep his cool while explaining his Faith. It's can be pretty tough to sit back and defend your faith against hostile questioners, and It would be much easier to go into offensive mode. I can assure you, many people's religious belief, if they were clearly exposited, would not stand up to the amount of scrutiny you see Soothing Dave work through. He's extremely good at keeping his cool and just answering questions very directly.

I went through my hotheaded days, but have learned to relax. The purposely ignorant will out themselves, as will the time-wasters. My greatest success is in counting how many posts I make that never are responded to, like 1348. It's a complete dismantling of the simplistic verse cherry-picking some engage in.

When your debating partner is silenced into changing the subject, or picking at nits, you know you have made a good witness to the truth.

SD

[SoothingDave]

That's very interesting, and I'll have to think about it. You're saying that intention counts as well as the actual action in determining whether a sin is mortal or venial.

Of course it does. Accidentally running over a person with your car introduces evil, hurt and pain into the world. Intentionally running someone over does as well. But the two are not the same thing in terms of sin.

I've seen the argument that all sin is a rejection of God's will and therefore, all sin deserves death. Since I saw that in Father Keung's book on Karl Barth's theory of Justification, I guess it was from a questionable source. Can you suggest a way of thinking about this?

The Bible tells us as much. If perfection, absolute perfection is the standard for admission into Heaven (and it is, cause nothing unclean can enter His Presence), then the tiniest of sin disqualifies.

Could it be that it is the desire to commit the sin that makes it mortal?

You must know it is seriously wrong and do it anyway. That's what makes a mortal sin.

SD