Where Have All the Protestants Gone?

NOR ^ | January 2006 | Thomas Storck

[Cronos]

You're refuting a statement with another statement. Would you be kind enough to explain how the Catholic Church advances, supports, and especially how it teaches evolution?

I guess he got it from an unrefutable source, like Jack Chick or the website "The secrets of the Catholic Church and how Nasa has secretly created a cockroach army to conquer the moon"

[gscc]

Obviously at typo - I am not Catholic, so I would not presume to be able to bless as only the Lord could.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Says the person who got banned within the last month.

If I were "banned" I wouldn't be in here talking to you now would I? I believe "suspended" was the word you were digging for. But I just couldn't stay away. I'd miss you too much. (smooch)

[gscc]

When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

Note that he had no union with her until she gave birth - he obviously took Mary as his wife in every sense of the word.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

Watch out. You're eventually going to receive a link with an eleven page essay by Jerome telling you that "until" doesn't really mean "until". :-)

[Jaded]

You are making an assumption that they had sex in the stable. The point of "But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus." was that Mary was a VIRGIN. He didn't even have sex with her after she was found to be pregnant.

Much the same way that referring to Jesus Christ as the first born assumes there are more. If all she ever had was 1 child He would still be the firstborn son, an important distinction in the Jewish faith.

Have a nice evening, it's late and I hafta work tomorrow. (sigh)

[gscc]

I am not presuming as to when they had sex or where only that at some point after the birth of Jesus that had a "union".

[pegleg]

Watch out. You're eventually going to receive a link with an eleven page essay by Jerome telling you that "until" doesn't really mean "until". :-)

Ask and ye shall receive.

St. Jerome

You almost got it right. Actually Jerome responded to Helvidius in an essay defending the The Perpetual Virginity Of Blessed Mary. Yes, the essay is about 11 pages and within these pages he cites several examples of the adverb “till” used in scripture. For example

“Our reply is briefly this -- the words "knew" and "till" in the language of Holy Scripture are capable of a double meaning.”

"Now we have to prove that just as in the one case he has followed the usage of Scripture, so with regard to the word "till" he is utterly refuted by the authority of the same Scripture, which often denotes by its ["till"'s] use a fixed time (he himself told us so) [and] frequently time without limitation, as when God by the mouth of the prophet says to certain persons, "Even unto old age I am He" [Is. 46:4]. Will He cease to be God when they have grown old?"

"And the Savior in the Gospel tells the Apostles, "Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world" [Matt. 28:20b]. Will the Lord then after the end of the world has come forsake His disciples, and at the very time when seated on twelve thrones they are to judge the twelve tribes of Israel will they be bereft of the company of their Lord?

There are more but you get the idea.

[Cronos]

The problem with many dadaists is that they like quick-slogan religions -- they like and understand only the slogans that can fit on a bumper sticker. If they have faith, well good.

But, I'll point out people I know who have become Buddhists because they think it's a feel good, easy-going religion. But it ISN'T -- it's quite a strenuous religion with a strenuous requirement for it's followers. Many westerners treat it like candy fluff and they want to do the same with Christianity. Sadly, many Protestant groups give in to this and put up large show and tell song and dance numbers. There are many Protestant groups that DON'T do this (and may their numbers increase), but mostly the problem tends to be the dummying down to the lowest level,

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Yo Pegleg. You're not gonna believe this but when I posted that last night I had you in mind. I thought to myself, Pegleg's gonna jump all over this. lol.

[pegleg]

Whad up? Yes, I didn’t want to disappoint you :-) BTW, have you ever read the entire link? At one time, you said you were going to.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Yes I read it a couple of years ago already. You still in fla?

[SoothingDave]

So tell me Dave, how is someone saved?

Right after you tell me if Baptism is necessary for salvation.

SD

[SoothingDave]

They did claim parts of Scripture are not true.

No, they didn't. They said parts are not to be misunderstood as literal history when they are in fact poetic.

SD

[pegleg]

You still in fla?

Yes I am. It's a tough life. I'm playing golf every weekend, rooting for the Gators and I get upset every time the temperature falls below 50 :-)

[SoothingDave]

Answer the questions then, why did Jesus have to die if you Catholics can save yourselves through the sacraments.

We can't "save ourselves" through the sacraments. This is an ill-constructed question.

Sacraments are how salvation, saving grace that is, is communicated, transmitted to us. Your question is like saying "why do you have switches and wiring, I thought you believed in electricity?"

When you bathe the baby, is it possible because God created water and makes it rain, or because there are pipes and faucets in your house?

SD

[Invincibly Ignorant]

I get upset every time the temperature falls below 50 :-)

Come to think of it, this must be what gets to Rickey Williams too. :-)

[SoothingDave]

I am not presuming as to when they had sex or where only that at some point after the birth of Jesus that had a "union".

But that's not what the Scripture says, if you want to read it in your way. It says they had no relations until Jesus was born. That means right then and right there.

Would a natural English speaker say "I didn't get up till noon" if he in fact woke up at 2PM?

Would someone say "I studied mathematics until I was 18" if he in fact studied math all through college?

Would someone say "I never believed in love at first sight until Susie walked into the room" if he fell in love with Kim?

No. The word, in your interpreted usage means that one state of affairs is true in the first half of the sentence and a different state of affairs is true in the second half. And the moment identified by the "till" is the moment of change.

Can you give one example of the word "till" being used in this manner, to mean "everything I just said changed, but not at the moment I describe, but at some indeterminate point in the future."

I'm sure the folks at Oxford would be interested in this new meaning of the word.

SD

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Can you give one example of the word "till" being used in this manner, to mean "everything I just said changed, but not at the moment I describe, but at some indeterminate point in the future."

The Steeler won 4 Superbowls in the 70's but didn't win another til 20006. :-)

[Invincibly Ignorant]

oops one too many zeros on the 2006