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To: RnMomof7; InterestedQuestioner
Notice that He calls them SIGNS

Augustine sees the bread and wine as signs, just as the Church does as described here:

At the heart of the Eucharistic celebration are the bread and wine that, by the words of Christ and the invocation of the Holy Spirit, become Christ's Body and Blood. Faithful to the Lord's command the Church continues to do, in his memory and until his glorious return, what he did on the eve of his Passion: "He took bread. . . ." "He took the cup filled with wine. . . ." The signs of bread and wine become, in a way surpassing understanding, the Body and Blood of Christ; they continue also to signify the goodness of creation. Thus in the Offertory we give thanks to the Creator for bread and wine, fruit of the "work of human hands," but above all as "fruit of the earth" and "of the vine"—gifts of the Creator. The Church sees in the gesture of the king-priest Melchizedek, who "brought out bread and wine," a prefiguring of her own offering.

He does not say it is the body and blood of Christ

Not only did Augustine believe that the Eucharist is a sign, but like the Church, he also believed in the Real Presence, and to deny that Augustine did believe in the Real Presence is to give only yourself comfort in your false belief. Here are some more of his own words on the subject:

    The bread which you see on the altar is, sanctified by the word of God, the body of Christ; that chalice, or rather what is contained in the chalice, is, sanctified by the word of God, the blood of Christ. [Sermo 227; on p.377]

    Christ bore Himself in His hands, when He offered His body saying: "this is my body." [Enarr. in Ps. 33 Sermo 1, 10; on p.377]

    Nobody eats this flesh without previously adoring it. [Enarr. in Ps. 98, 9; on p.387]

    [Referring to the sacrifice of Melchizedek (Gen 14:18 ff.)] The sacrifice appeared for the first time there which is now offered to God by Christians throughout the whole world. [City of God, 16, 22; on p.403]

    Christ is both the priest, offering Himself, and Himself the Victim. He willed that the sacramental sign of this should be the daily sacrifice of the Church. [Ibid, 10, 20; on p.99]

    He took flesh from the flesh of Mary. . . and gave us the same flesh to be eaten unto salvation . . . we do sin by not adoring. [Explanations of the Psalms, 98, 9; on p.20]

    Not all bread, but only that which receives the blessing of Christ, becomes Christ’s body. [Ibid., 234, 2; on p.31]

    What you see is the bread and the chalice . . . But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the Body of Christ and the chalice the Blood of Christ. [Ibid., 272; on p.32]

    Not only is no one forbidden to take as food the Blood of this Sacrifice, rather, all who wish to possess life are exhorted to drink thereof. [Questions of the Hepateuch, 3, 57; on p.134]

    The Sacrifice of our times is the Body and Blood of the Priest Himself . . . Recognize then in the Bread what hung upon the tree; in the chalice what flowed from His side. [Sermo iii. 1-2; on p.62]

    The Blood they had previously shed they afterwards drank. [Mai 26, 2; 86, 3; on p.64]

    Eat Christ, then; though eaten He yet lives, for when slain He rose from the dead. Nor do we divide Him into parts when we eat Him: though indeed this is done in the Sacrament, as the faithful well know when they eat the Flesh of Christ, for each receives his part, hence are those parts called graces. Yet though thus eaten in parts He remains whole and entire; eaten in parts in the Sacrament, He remains whole and entire in Heaven. [Mai 129, 1; cf. Sermon 131; on p.65]

    Out of hatred of Christ the crowd there shed Cyprian’s blood, but today a reverential multitude gathers to drink the Blood of Christ . . . this altar . . . whereon a Sacrifice is offered to God . . . [Sermo 310, 2; cf. City of God, 8, 27, 1; on p.65]

    He took into His hands what the faithful understand; He in some sort bore Himself when He said: This is My Body. [Enarr. 1, 10 on Ps. 33; on p.65]

    The very first heresy was formulated when men said: "this saying is hard and who can bear it [Jn 6:60]?" [Enarr. 1, 23 on Ps. 54; on p.66]

    Thou art the Priest, Thou the Victim, Thou the Offerer, Thou the Offering. [Enarr. 1, 6 on Ps. 44; on p.66]

So despite your efforts to falsify Augustine's quote, he certainly did not believe that "to confuse the bread (the sign) for the body of Christ (the signified) is, according to Augustine, weakness, bondage and error".

Titanites if you error in your belief that the accidents are temporarily transformed and in fact Christ is spiritual present and not physically present, might we say that kneeling, prayer and incense might be considered idolatry rather like the jews with moses staff?

If you error in your belief that Jesus Christ is God, might we say that your worship of him might be considered idolatry rather like the jews with moses staff? (See how idiotic your question is?)

198 posted on 02/12/2006 9:58:45 AM PST by Titanites
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To: Titanites
Augustine sees the bread and wine as signs, just as the Church does as described here:

I am simply quoting YOUR post. Augustine clearly says they are but signs

Now, as to follow the letter, and to take signs for the things that are signified by them, is a mark of weakness and bondage; so to interpret signs wrongly is the result of being misled by error.

His word not mine

To look to the phrase "Real Presence" as translating to the current belief in transubstantiation is misleading, for as a child of the Reformation I believe that Christ is truly present at the Lords Supper . The term "Real Presence "does not translate into transubstantiation at all. As you well know the proposition that the bread became the physical presence of Christ was not [proposed until the 9th century and not a mandatory belief ( dogma of the Catholic church until Trent.

Nobody eats this flesh without previously adoring it. [Enarr. in Ps. 98, 9; on p.387]

Interesting quote here as eating flesh to the Israelites was an abomination , and this was from a sermon on an OT books.. So I see it as interesting that a practice seen as an abomination would be used by Augustine to support eating the actual flesh of Christ.

Do you have a link to that sermon? ?

If you error in your belief that Jesus Christ is God, might we say that your worship of him might be considered idolatry rather like the jews with moses staff? (See how idiotic your question is?)

No not idiotic but serious. Often the Catholic church has used the example of the rod of Moses changing substance into a snake to substantiate the principle of a change in the accidents. So it is a serious question.

So humor the idiot, what do you think?
If you are wrong and the bread is just bread and not transformed, would not kneeling in front of it, offering incense to it and making it the centerpiece of your worship be idolatry, just as the rod of moses became an idol?

199 posted on 02/12/2006 11:26:33 AM PST by RnMomof7 ("Sola Scriptura,Sola Christus,Sola Gratia,Sola Fide,Soli Deo Gloria)
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