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How Tradition Gave Us the Bible
Assoc of Students at Catholic Colleges ^ | Mark Shea

Posted on 02/06/2006 1:02:10 PM PST by NYer

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To: sandyeggo
Of course, we remember that most men at that time in history were illiterate and could not read for themselves

Not true ....evidently most could.

121 posted on 02/06/2006 7:38:45 PM PST by Diego1618
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To: Pyro7480
no, Grace is unmerited favor with God, Our righteousness is as filthy rags. There is nothing we could possibly do that would do justice for our sins, if it were so, then Christ would have died in vain. If God wanted us to "repair the offense against him" would he not have given us guidelines to do so? The only guide lines to repay for our sins, were the guide lines for sacrifice, which was completed with the sacrifice of Christ. Read Hebrews.
122 posted on 02/06/2006 7:39:00 PM PST by whispering out loud (the bible is either 100% true, or in it's very nature it is 100% a lie)
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To: whispering out loud
They're not "graven images" because they are not idols and they are not worshipped. The Greek in the Septuagint is eidwlon - eidolon or idol. See Exodus 20:4.

Solomon's Temple in all its glory was not mandated in every detail by God, nor was the temple that succeeded it. Yet they had statues, ornaments, and representations of every kind. And this was common throughout the region, as any archaeological dig will reveal.

123 posted on 02/06/2006 7:40:52 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: Pyro7480
It was a call for them to mourn their sins, as well as repent. Not pay for physically or monetarily.
124 posted on 02/06/2006 7:42:32 PM PST by whispering out loud (the bible is either 100% true, or in it's very nature it is 100% a lie)
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To: TexConfederate1861

Greetings in Christ...

I understand your practices, I just prefer to keep all my focus on (venerate I guess one could say) Christ...is that such a bad thing?

What do you make of the scripture below particularly in comparison to the picture that has been posted of the people kneeling before the statue of Mary? I respectfully look forward to your impressions...Blessings in Christ to you and yours!

Acts 10

The next day Peter started out with them, and some of the brothers from Joppa went along. 24The following day he arrived in Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. 26But Peter made him get up. "Stand up," he said, "I am only a man myself."


125 posted on 02/06/2006 7:44:19 PM PST by phatus maximus (John 6:29...Learn it, love it, live it...)
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To: AnAmericanMother

If not in worship then what is the point of carving a statue of her? Once again she was blessed among, not above women. To honor her that highly says that she had more to do with her role than she did, once again it was God who chose her, not because she was special. There is far to much emphasis put on Mary, she was a 100% human woman, not of great means, or exemplary features or qualities.


126 posted on 02/06/2006 7:48:02 PM PST by whispering out loud (the bible is either 100% true, or in it's very nature it is 100% a lie)
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To: sandyeggo
You were speaking of the Latin Vulgate, which was translated by St. Jerome, who was at Rome

Jerome translated "The Vulgate" from Bethlehem in Judea with the help of Hebrew scholars. St. Jerome

127 posted on 02/06/2006 7:53:07 PM PST by Diego1618
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To: TexConfederate1861

"Yes...read the Didache. These were oral teachings and instructions. "

I have. Is the Didache inerrant?


128 posted on 02/06/2006 7:53:12 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: TexConfederate1861

"He sat at the feet of St. John."

And how is that better than reading what St. John himself wrote?

Is he better at explaining St. John's teaching than St. John was?


129 posted on 02/06/2006 7:55:51 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: TexConfederate1861
Speaking of ignorance, you are obviously ignorant of what I have posted thus far. I have quoted Exo. 20:5, which specifically forbids bowing down to any statue (i.e., graven image). I have shown a picture of people bowing to a statue of Mary. No one has denied that this is a typical Catholic practice--and one that crosses over to the Eastern Orthodox Church. Instead you want to argue that they're not actually worshipping the statue, so it's okay.

That's irrelevant; the Bible forbids the very act of bowing down to them, right there in the Decalogue. Ergo, all Catholics who do so are in a state of unrepentant sin, as are the RCC and EO heirarchies for tolerating the practice.

The Bible does not excuse sin because of what is "really" in a person's heart--rather, the Bible is built upon the presupposition that the things we say and do are reflective of what is in our hearts, "For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks" (Mat. 12:34).

By the way, God had the Hebrews put figures of winged Cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant.

Yes, but their prayers were always directed not to the cherubim, nor did they ask the cherubim to intercede for them. They prayed to the invisible "YHVH God of Israel, who dwells between the cherubim" (2 Ki. 19:15, cf. Exo. 25:22).

Interestingly, God also commanded Moses to make a serpent of brass and put it on a pole that all who looked on it might be healed of the bite of the asps He sent upon them as punishment (Num. 21:8). Strangely enough, this serpent was actually a type of the Messiah, who was lifted up on a cross and made sin for us (John 3:14, 2 Co. 5:21), and yet, when the people burned incense to it, Hezekiah still destroyed it (2 Ki. 18:4).

130 posted on 02/06/2006 7:56:37 PM PST by Buggman (L'chaim b'Yeshua HaMashiach!)
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To: Pyro7480

Psalm 103, is one of many statements in Holy Scripture that shows us God, if we approach Him confessing our sin with contrite and repent, will forgive our sins, wiping them away forever and demanding no retribution or futher action to satisfy His forgiveness, for the Father forgives us for the sake of His Son who willingly gave His life to spare us the eternal damnation...Please enjoy this most beautiful psalm:

Praise the LORD, O my soul;
all my inmost being, praise his holy name.

2 Praise the LORD, O my soul,
and forget not all his benefits-

3 who forgives all your sins
and heals all your diseases,

4 who redeems your life from the pit
and crowns you with love and compassion,

5 who satisfies your desires with good things
so that your youth is renewed like the eagle's.

6 The LORD works righteousness
and justice for all the oppressed.

7 He made known his ways to Moses,
his deeds to the people of Israel:

8 The LORD is compassionate and gracious,
slow to anger, abounding in love.

9 He will not always accuse,
nor will he harbor his anger forever;

10 he does not treat us as our sins deserve
or repay us according to our iniquities.

11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his love for those who fear him;

12 as far as the east is from the west,
so far has he removed our transgressions from us.

13 As a father has compassion on his children,
so the LORD has compassion on those who fear him

14 for he knows how we are formed,
he remembers that we are dust.

15 As for man, his days are like grass,
he flourishes like a flower of the field;

16 the wind blows over it and it is gone,
and its place remembers it no more.

17 But from everlasting to everlasting
the LORD's love is with those who fear him,
and his righteousness with their children's children-

18 with those who keep his covenant
and remember to obey his precepts.

19 The LORD has established his throne in heaven,
and his kingdom rules over all.

20 Praise the LORD, you his angels,
you mighty ones who do his bidding,
who obey his word.

21 Praise the LORD, all his heavenly hosts,
you his servants who do his will.

22 Praise the LORD, all his works
everywhere in his dominion.
Praise the LORD, O my soul.



Thank you Lord for sending your Son to fulfill the Law and do all that we could never do. All praise and Glory to God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit!

May His blessings be upon you and yours...in Christ.


131 posted on 02/06/2006 7:59:37 PM PST by phatus maximus (John 6:29...Learn it, love it, live it...)
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To: Pyro7480
Unless you have video showing that they are bowing TO the statue, that isn't a good example of a pic supporting your view.

Are you actually denying that they are bowing to the statue? Or are you just trying to kick up dust to obscure the issue?

If there were a Bible in front of them instead of the statue, and knew nothing of the group, what conclusion would you draw? Possibly a similar one.

Unless it were evident that they were reading the Bible, yes I would. See post 105, about halfway down.

Why? Are you suggesting that they are actually just reading the statue?

132 posted on 02/06/2006 8:00:25 PM PST by Buggman (L'chaim b'Yeshua HaMashiach!)
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To: whispering out loud
If not in worship then what is the point of carving a statue of her?

Remember that this is an OLD church -- until recently (in church terms) most folks couldn't read. The stained glass windows and the statues and wall paintings in churches were a guide to the illiterate of the Gospels and the lives of the saints. Periodically iconoclasts come along and try to wipe out representational art -- oddly enough, right now they seem only to get exercised about the statues and leave the stained glass alone . . .

Of course the Blessed Virgin was 100 percent human, but she was chosen by God to carry His son . . . through God's grace, not her own merit, she was made special because of her freely-chosen role in salvation. (It couldn't have happened without her, and she DID have a choice, before she said, "Be it done unto me according to Thy word.")

She does help people to Christ who are too shy or too humble to go without support. In medieval times, she was often represented as interceding with her Son on behalf of sinners, whom she sheltered under her cloak while she pleaded for them. (Who hasn't gone to their mom to intercede for them with dad, after they've broken a window or put a dent in the fender . . . ?)

133 posted on 02/06/2006 8:01:00 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: AnAmericanMother
You can, I hope, grasp the difference between bowing down TO a "graven image", and WORSHIPPING it -- and kneeling in intercessory prayer?

The Bible makes no such distinction, ma'am. The Bible equates our actions with what's in our hearts.

134 posted on 02/06/2006 8:01:57 PM PST by Buggman (L'chaim b'Yeshua HaMashiach!)
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To: TexConfederate1861
Check out the Orthodox Church....it is the closest to what existed then.

Which day do they claim is the Sabbath?

135 posted on 02/06/2006 8:02:27 PM PST by Buggman (L'chaim b'Yeshua HaMashiach!)
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To: Buggman
It doesn't say "graven image" in the original. It says "idol." "Graven image" is 17th century English for "idol". You can look it up.

Idols are worshipped. Statues are not.

136 posted on 02/06/2006 8:02:53 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: Buggman
The Bible plainly makes the distinction. The Bible is full of fine distinctions.

It helps if you read the original with a good lexicon.

137 posted on 02/06/2006 8:03:30 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: sandyeggo
Does it never cease to irk you that the Catholic Church IS the Church of the apostles?

Actually the term "Catholic" is never mentioned in scripture. The Church began by Christ and continued throughout the New Testament is "The Church of God".

It is specifically mentioned 12 times in the New Testament, (example; Acts 20:28) and Jesus prayed to the Father that He, (The Father) would keep the Apostles in His (The Father's) own Name; [John 17:11]. God's name was not Catholic.

The "Church of God" is still being referenced well into the 2nd century by the Early Church fathers in their writings. Polycarp's epistle to the Philippians

138 posted on 02/06/2006 8:06:44 PM PST by Diego1618
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To: whispering out loud; Buggman; TexConfederate1861; AnAmericanMother; NYer; Salvation; AlaninSA; ...
From How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization, by Thomas E. Woods, Jr., pgs 116-117:

"Between the 720s and 740s he [John of Damascus, a saint in both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches] wrote his Three Treatises on the Divine Images in response to iconoclasm. Naturally, much of his argument was based on biblical and patristic citations, as well as the testimony of tradition as a whole, with regard to the specific question of whether God really opposed the veneration of images, as the iconoclasts claimed. But he also offered important theological defense of religious art. John detected with the iconoclast position a tendency towards Manichaeism, a heresy that had divided the world into a realm of wickedness, that of matter, and one of goodness, that of the spirit.... 'You abuse matter and call it worthless,' John scolded the iconoclasts. 'So do the Manichees, but the divine Scripture proclaims that it is good. For it says, "And God saw everything that He had made, and behold it was exceedingly good."'

Mr. Woods then gives a larger quote from St. John on pgs. 117-188:

I do not venerate matter, I venerate the fashioner of matter, who became matter [through the Incarnation] for my sake and accepted to dwell in matter and through matter worked my salvation, and I will not cease from reverencing matter, through which my salvation was worked.... Therefore I reverence the rest of matter and hold in respect that through which my salvation came, because it is filled with divine energy and grace. Is not the thrice-precious and thrice-blessed wood of the cross matter? Is not the holy and august mountain, the place of the skull, matter? Is not the life-giving and life-bearing rock, the holy tomb, the source of the resurrection, matter? Is not the ink and the all-holy book of the Gospels matter? Is not the life-bearing table, which offers to us the bread of life, matter? Is not the gold and silver matter, out of which crosses and tables and bowls are fashioned? And before all these things, is not the body and blood of my Lord matter? Either do away with reverence and veneration for all these or submit to the tradition of the Church and follow the veneration of images of God and friends of God, sanctified by name and therefore overshadowed by the grace of the divine Spirt [from the Three Treatises].

139 posted on 02/06/2006 8:07:04 PM PST by Pyro7480 (Sancte Joseph, terror daemonum, ora pro nobis!)
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To: whispering out loud

Did Jonah condemn them for putting on sackcloth?


140 posted on 02/06/2006 8:08:14 PM PST by Pyro7480 (Sancte Joseph, terror daemonum, ora pro nobis!)
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