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To: whispering out loud

"You have completely dodged my point. My point wasn't the validity of the Catholic church, it was merely that Christianity isn't exclusive to Catholicism."

I agree wholeheartedly.

"I myself am not one of those who believe that Catholicism is leading people to hell, but I do personally disagree with some of the teachings of Catholicism, and I do not believe that they hold exclusive rights to Christ."

Being Orthodox myself and not a Roman Catholic, I agree with this too.

My point is that neither the NT nor the OT are the end all of theological inquiry when you seek to determine what The Church is. You need to see what The Church was that established what the canon of scripture would be (leave aside later Protestant amendments). By the time of the establishment of the canon of the NT at the end of the fourth century, the ecclesisastical structure which we see clearly in Orthodox ecclesiology today (assume some sort of real, exercisable papal primacy)had been in existence since the middle to late 2nd century (the idea of The Church being fully present in a single diocese composed of a bishop surrounded by his clergy and laity centered on the Eucharist, of course, is from the first decade of the 2nd century, around 105). As I said earlier, it was the hierarchs of this liturgical and hierarchial Church which were inspired by the Holy Spirit to discern the proper canon of the NT. Consequently, unless one knows and understands what the Church of those times believed, one is in no position to properly understand why any given book was included in the canon of the NT because the measuring stick which the hierarchs used to determine canonicity was "what the Church always and everywhere believed".

Now one could, I suppose, make arguments based in that knowledge and understanding of early Church beliefs and praxis, that The Church in the West or The East departed from those beliefs, but the reference point would have to be "what the Church always and everywhere believed", which is comprehensive in this regard, and not the scriptures which are not comprehensive in that manner or at least not so specifically comprehensive. Let me give you an example. The Eucharistic theology of The Church is firmly rooted in scripture, even, for us Orthodox and Latins, quite specifically so. We believe in the "Real Presence". Most Protestants don't, asserting that scripture isn't clear. But Holy Tradition, what the Church always and everywhere believed, at the time of the establishment of the canon of the NT was quite clear about the truth of the dogma of the Real Presence.

"You have completely dodged my point."

Oh, I don't think so. Your point is well taken, but its basis in scripture on the theory that it can't be right because it isn't there simply doesn;t hold up. Its also the problem with your statement that you have served in several different ecclesial communities but have yet to find one that lines up 100% with "the word of God".


45 posted on 02/04/2006 10:50:54 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis
when I study the scriptures, I do not stop with the canonized scriptures, I also have researched the apocrypha, as well as many other resources. That being said, you have hidden your point with allot of words, I have read and reread your statement, and the only point that I can find is that you do not rely primarily upon the holy scriptures when deciding your Christian faith. I would assert though that the Bible should be our primary resource when researching our faith, any other resource should be used only to help translate the scriptures.
46 posted on 02/04/2006 11:31:54 AM PST by whispering out loud (the bible is either 100% true, or in it's very nature it is 100% a lie)
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