Posted on 02/04/2006 4:55:13 AM PST by bornacatholic
There are those who insist on a restrictive view of EENS (extra ecclesia non salus, no salvation outside the church. They can, and should, be ignored. They have no authority. Their ideas about EENS have, for a LONG time, been condemned by the Living Magisterium.
The consequence of that is obvious. They are outside the church and are, according to their own understanding of EENS, condemned to Hell
They never seem to realize it though.
Dream on........
Neither the Pope or the Cathalic Church "save" anyone. Only our Lord Jesus Christ does that.
The transistion in logic between quoting a Pope and then quoting an Arrowsmith lyric was so swift and severe I think I may have to enter an iron lung
And, Jack Bauer
....as is clearly stated in the Bible. The End.
Pardon my ignorance, WHO?
Ping for discussion; I'd suggest reading Unam Sanctam before commenting.
Christ stated that the Church, NOT Scripture should be the final authority: "And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican." (Matthew 18:17) Christ did NOT state to refer to or consult Scripture for disputes and correction. He said to go to the Church as It is the final authority in Christianity. In addition, St. Paul states that the Church, NOT Scripture is "THE pillar and ground of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:15) Since the Church alone is mentioned as THE pillar of truth, then It alone has the right to discern the truth and interpret Scripture. For if individuals could correctly interpret Scripture, then all interpretations would be EXACTLY THE SAME as there can only be ONE spiritual truth for the plural of the word "truth" NEVER appears in Scripture. The Church is Christ's bride (Ephesians 5:29) and has no spot, wrinkle or blemish (Ephesians 5:27). Christ also stated that the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church (Matthew 16:18).
No instead the catholic church wasn't formed until the rule of Constantine
Scripture clearly points out St. Peter as Christ's representative on earth. Christ did not ask the other Eleven to feed and tend His sheep. If you read The Acts Of The Apostles, it is clear that St. Peter leads the Apostles. Therefore, since the Apostles are to be replaced as they die (Acts 1:20-26), then it follows that whoever succeed(s) St. Peter is leader of the Church. There is only to be one shepherd of the Church (John 10:16). For the Apostles did not argue amongst themselves whether there was a "greatest" at all, but who amongst them was THE greatest (Mark 9:34; Luke 9:46).
No, history supports the Catholic Church, actually. Ignatius of Antioch, who lived in the late First Century A.D., a convert to Christianity through John the Apostle, and bishop of Antioch, in a letter to the Christians of Smyrna (present-day Turkey) said:
See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.
Also, there are ONLY seven Catholic sacraments: Baptism, Confession, Eucharist, Confirmation, Holy Orders, Marriage, and Sacrament of the Sick. The others are part of the Catholic church, but aren't sacraments.
Of course, in fairness, it should be remembered that the four Eastern Patriarchates had, by this time, cut off the popes of Rome as heretics and all the historical reasons for this aside, the theological basis for that anathema was the innovation of the filioque. As a practical matter, our patriarchs were basically saying that the Latins were "extra ecclesiam" and although the East has always resisted officially declaring that membership in The Church is the sine qua non of salvation, there certainly were those then and now who hold exactly that position. Though he declared this 150 odd years later, +Mark of Ephesus stated the Eastern position vis a vis Rome and those in communion with it,
"We have excised and cut them off from the common body of the Church, we have, therefore, rejected them as heretics, and for this reason we are separated from them"; they are, therefore, heretics, and we have cut them off as heretics."
Nearly 50 years ago as a first grader in Catholic school, I was on the receiving end of this when the nun who was my teacher quoted the last line of this Bull to me in front of the whole class. I've never forgotten that, but I have also never forgotten my father's rage at the comment and the kind and healing words of the old monsignor/pastor of the parish which ran the school to the effect that the nun was "a silly woman" and that the Bull didn't mean "Holy Orthodoxy". Of course, that's exactly what the Bull meant, in part, but it was a nice thing for an old Irish priest to say. I still smile when I think of that kindly, very good man.
It seems apparent that the theology of the Latin Church has developed away from this sort of medieval position. Personally I think the mental gymnastics necessary to on the one hand get beyond this attitude while at the same time maintaining the fiction that the Latin Church simply now better understands what Boniface was saying is unfortunate. The ecclesiology of the Latin Church makes this necessary. As we all know, its hard to walk across a wet floor once one has painted oneself into a corner. The bottom line is, if we Orthodox can come to a point where we can trust the Latin Church (not just the Pope; you all know I think +BXVI is spectacular)it would be best if we allow them whatever fig leaves they feel they need to deal with some of the unfortunate remarks of their popes and hierarchs.
As far as it goes, this is of course true, but the Fathers, back to the beginning, teach that, as a Liturgical people centered on the Eucharist and under the leadership of our bishops, the overwhelming majority of us are "saved" within our liturgical communities which is The Church.
I didn't realize I was a problem...
*Hey, don't knock it.We have made scads of dough due to our audaciousness. We have accumulated wealth to such a degree that we could,ten times over, buy and sell all the crummy countries populated by a majority of protestants.
You may not know Jack Bauer. But Jack Bauer knows you.
LOL What would your Mother say? :)
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