Replies

It's not a theory at all, jo kus! I've known Christ personally for 46 years now.

Well, then you are much more experienced in being in Christ than I have! Please note I am not questioning your relationship with the Lord. I am only questioning the idea that one can "know" the Bible is the Word of God directly WITHOUT taking the word of another human being. The Spirit doesn't lead us to determine the cannon of Scriptures, nor are the individual books self-attesting. For example, tell me how the Spirit leads you to know that Philemon, by itself, is inspired by God?

We Christians have all had at least one direct Spiritual revelation: that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Another circular argument...how do you know the book called "Matthew" is inspired by God? Please note that the Jews don't consider it as inspired by God. We base our entire Christian paradigm on what others have told us, the witness of the Apostles and their successors.

But as the Scriptures say, we must try the spirits (both spiritual beings and prophets) - and the test of the spirits is to ask who they say Jesus Christ is (I John 4).

Besides again being a circular argument of quoting Scripture to "prove" Scripture, I agree that we SHOULD test whether something that we are told "comes from God". We look at the witness and determine for ourselves if God is active in that person.

Using Cayce as the counter-example, after he had contacted a false spirit he abandoned his earlier confession of Christ for what that spirit said, i.e. that Christ was an "older brother".

I'd say this person is listening to the wrong spirits... That is the problem with such things. This is way too subjective to base a rational set of beliefs upon. And God is not a Spirit of Lies. God is not against rationale thought. I find it difficult to believe people's so-called "moving in the Spirit". I prefer to build my faith on something a bit more stronger.

Regards

AG, it is so refreshing to hear your solid testimony. I smile each time I hear you say that you follow no human doctrine, but are concerned with what the Lord Himself has revealed in His scripture. You highlight a great truth - "Let each one work out his/her own salvation with fear and trembling."

I rejoice at your reminder that we are to try the spirits, and I fully agree that the test of the spirits is whether they be of God. That test is how the spirit deals with Christ. "Has the 2nd person of the Trinity come in the actual, physical flesh in the person of Jesus of Nazareth? Do you recognize Jesus to be God's Messiah?"

A negative to any aspect of either question would quickly indicate that spirit not to be one sent from God.

Nonetheless, we should listen to Jo Kus' caution because it is so hard for younger Christians to distinguish between spiritual and emotional. "Because I feel it." is not on the same level as "Because I have tested the spirits to see if they be of God."

In that regard, we must rely most heavily upon scripture. At the same time, I would heartily agree with JoKus, Kolokotronis, and BB at this point that we can receive great assistance via the collective stored wisdom and tradition of the Church. After all, Jesus said, "...I will build my Church....the gates of hell shall not prevail against it....whatever you loose on earth...whatever you bind on earth...also in heaven."

We must rebuild any tabernacle that has fallen.

Many believe in a church-less Christianity, some because of personal injury they have received (or perceived) in a particular group, and others because of faulty teaching by those who advance their own opinions without regard for the great love Christ had for the Church, "...and gave His life for her, to present her spotless..."

There is no church-less Christianity with validity. The Lord WANTS us to work through the difficulties of interpersonal conflicts, so we can demonstrate that through His power unity can be achieved. And when the world sees our love for one another, then they will believe that God truly did send Jesus Christ.

My highest regards to all of you; all brothers and sisters in Christ

Thank you so much for your reply!

For example, tell me how the Spirit leads you to know that Philemon, by itself, is inspired by God?

The Spirit confirms that God is love, that Christ is our High Priest – our covering so that whatever debt was owed by us has been paid by Him. And the Spirit affirms by Philemon that we are likewise to love each other – substituting ourselves to help our brother, in this case Paul substitutes himself to pay the debt of a lowly servant. BTW, this is in the same spirit of Pope Benedict’s first encyclical, love your neighbor not merely in words, but in deeds – which is the same spirit of the book of James.

There are ancient manuscripts which were never part of any canon that contain passages that come alive within me. Likewise there are times regular people say things which ring with clarity and joy in the Spirit – and conversely times when the words seem to set off an alarm within and I can read no further. An example of the former was a little blue haired lady in church who once said off-the-cuff when the minister was preaching about Peter’s sinking in his attempt to walk across the water to Jesus that, simply, ’sinking was not his job’. An example of the latter was the recent posting of 95 theses against the Catholic church by Matthew Fox, a former priest (in an attempt to mimic Luther). A quick glance showed that his “doctrine” denied the deity of Jesus Christ – it was painful to read anything further.

The apostles were not writing doctrines of men. I know this because the indwelling Spirit confirms that He is the author and they were merely scribes. As for those who do not consider Matthew to be inspired by God, not everyone has “ears to hear” or “eyes to see” as Christ explains in Matthew 13 and Paul further discusses in Romans 11.

We look at the witness and determine for ourselves if God is active in that person.

Personally, I use a three prong test for statements made by one who declares ‘thus sayeth the Lord’.

The first is the fruits of the Spirit. As Jesus said in Matthew 7 a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. In Galatians 5, Paul names the fruits of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness and self-control. If I don’t see all of these fruits in the life of the speaker, the message is ignored.

Secondly, I apply the Berean test spoken of in Acts 17; testing everything said against the whole of Scripture. The message must agree. And finally, I pray and meditate on the statement and ask the indwelling Spirit to lead me to Truth. He has never, ever disappointed me.

All of this is secondary of course to the test of the spirits – if the speaker denies the deity of Christ, I cannot endure anything else he says.

The bottom line is that I want to know what God says, not what I think He says or what someone else thinks He says.

I find it difficult to believe people's so-called "moving in the Spirit". I prefer to build my faith on something a bit more stronger.

We only differ on what we consider to be “stronger”. The three prong test above is my personal bar – whereas you trust others. A lot of people do, jo kus, and I am confident for those whose leaders are singularly and absolutely focused on Christ. But for those whose leaders are focused on something or someone else, I pray.

Peter had a direct Spiritual revelation from the Father that Jesus Christ is Lord (Matthew 16:17) and he walked with Jesus and learned directly from Him, as did John and the others. But the revelation Paul received was quite literally blinding and his walk was different:

But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. – Galatians 1:15-19

The bottom line is that it is ok to be different.