Extra ecclesiam - Outside the Church there is no salvation.

It's a stark sentence. Some Catholics even love its shock value, waving the doctrine like a flag in the face of their enemies. Other Catholics flatly refuse to believe it, and claim that this teaching was repudiated by the Second Vatican Council. Both groups are wrong.

Despite what some may think, this dogma is infallible, and all Catholics are required to believe it. This was repeated clearly at Vatican II, which said: "Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation."

At the same time, this dogma was never meant to be a sectarian battle cry, as if only Catholics may go to heaven.

So what is the correct interpretation of this sentence? What does the Catholic Church mean when she proclaims that Outside the Church there is no salvation?

OUTSIDE THE EARTH THERE IS NO LIFE

Saying that the Church is necessary for salvation is like saying that the earth is necessary for human life. Outside the Church there is no salvation, and outside the earth there is no life.

It's true, of course. The earth is our God-given home. If you leave here, you will die.

But if this is so, how do you explain the 445 astronauts who have flown into space and returned safely? If "outside the earth there is no life", how did Neil Armstrong ever walk on the moon?

The answer, of course, is simple: They didn't leave the earth; they just brought it with them. While they slept and walked on the moon, they were eating earth's food and breathing earth's air. Everything they had came from back home.

So when we say "outside the earth there is no life," we are saying that all of the means for survival are found on this planet. And when we say "outside the Church there is no salvation," we mean that all of the means of salvation -- doctrines, sacraments, and so on -- are found here, uncorrupted by error.

Some of these means can exist outside the visible bounds of the Church. For example, Protestants have most of the Bible, along with two of the seven sacraments. Nevertheless, these things are like the food and water on the Space Shuttle: they're life-giving, but they came from a place where they're far richer, more abundant and complete.

First, if a person even suspects that the Church is necessary for salvation, but refuses to act on it before he dies, he will go to hell. As Vatican II stated, "They could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

Second, if a person fails to enter or stay in the Church through no fault of his own, he may still be saved. Pope Pius IX said: "By Faith it is to be firmly held that outside the Apostolic Roman Church none can achieve salvation. This is the only ark of salvation. He who does not enter into it will perish in the flood. Nevertheless equally certainly it is to be held that those who suffer from invincible ignorance of the true religion are not for this reason guilty in the eyes of the Lord."

Finally, it's not enough simply to call yourself Catholic. There is nothing magic about registering at a parish. To go to heaven, you have to take advantages of the means offered by the Church. This includes praying often, giving alms to the poor, spreading the Gospel, going to Confession and believing in all of her teachings -- even the hard ones.

Pope John Paul II summed it up best: "People are saved through the Church, they are saved in the Church, but they always are saved by the grace of Christ. . . . This is the authentic meaning of the well-known statement Outside the Church there is no salvation."

Thing is, I know each and every element of dogma held to by the Catholic Church is backed up with one or more New Testament statements.

At the same time every single statement used to back any element of dogma can be understood in a multiplicity of ways. Confession, by the Congregation, or by an Individual, falls into that category.

Still, it's the doctrine of "Penance and Confession" where we encounter some differences between Protestant and Catholic understandings (glossing over the physical differences between the two Confessions of course).

When it comes to the sub-element of "penance" itself, we must ask that if Jesus atoned for our sins forever and ever (as stated repeatedly throughout the Scriptures), then what is it we, as humans, are adding to His atonement that was needed when we do penance?

Are we God?

To the Protestant mind, "penance" is a man-made, non-Scripturally based doctrine. To the Catholic mind, it's implicit in the thought that men are and must be ultimately responsible for their own salvation (otherwise freely offered by God).

Clearly the Catholic thought on the matter is to avoid the heresy of Antinomianism (one of its many spellings, which is the idea that God foregives everything). The Protestant doesn't particularly care whether or not some other heresy is involved as long as the Catholic is telling him he is a heretic for participating in Congregational confession alone.

Anyway, something like that ~

I suspect most Protestants have, by now, backed away from pure Calvinism (God saves you whether you want it or not) into something more like Catholicism (God saves you, but you gotta' do something). So, neither of us are in any real fear of being accused of Antinomianism.

BTW, if I read the New American Bible, the official version authorized by the Pope, it grants me indulgences for so many minutes of reading. That happens whether or not I believe anyone is authorized, by God, to offer indulgences! The presumption is somone somewhere is keeping track of what I do ~ and that they care ~ and boy will I be in trouble with Martin Luther someday showing up with all those indulgences hanging off me.

It's the "penance" part of the "Penance and Confession" doctrines that's the real problem here. There is a difference between Catholic and Protestant views ~ the "by faith alone" thing ~ that is highlighted pretty much by the concept of "penance" and the "indulgence" that the Catholic church authorizes its priests to grant.

I think it's a pretty minor issue these days ~ but back in the time of the Reformation/Counterreformation/ReligiousWars it was really, really, really major. People got killed over it.

Still, in contrast, the Religious Wars (in France, between the Catholics and Protestants) pale in comparison to the 30 Years War Phase II that followed ~ that was, more or less, between the Evangelicals and the Lutherans over what seems to have been the order of worship at Sunday services.

Now you talk about killing people, they nearly wiped out Germany over that one!

Proving, of course, that Protestants can, if properly motivated, put the Catholics to shame when it comes to religious legalism.

Thank you so much for your reply!

For example, tell me how the Spirit leads you to know that Philemon, by itself, is inspired by God?

The Spirit confirms that God is love, that Christ is our High Priest – our covering so that whatever debt was owed by us has been paid by Him. And the Spirit affirms by Philemon that we are likewise to love each other – substituting ourselves to help our brother, in this case Paul substitutes himself to pay the debt of a lowly servant. BTW, this is in the same spirit of Pope Benedict’s first encyclical, love your neighbor not merely in words, but in deeds – which is the same spirit of the book of James.

There are ancient manuscripts which were never part of any canon that contain passages that come alive within me. Likewise there are times regular people say things which ring with clarity and joy in the Spirit – and conversely times when the words seem to set off an alarm within and I can read no further. An example of the former was a little blue haired lady in church who once said off-the-cuff when the minister was preaching about Peter’s sinking in his attempt to walk across the water to Jesus that, simply, ’sinking was not his job’. An example of the latter was the recent posting of 95 theses against the Catholic church by Matthew Fox, a former priest (in an attempt to mimic Luther). A quick glance showed that his “doctrine” denied the deity of Jesus Christ – it was painful to read anything further.

Another circular argument...how do you know the book called "Matthew" is inspired by God? Please note that the Jews don't consider it as inspired by God. We base our entire Christian paradigm on what others have told us, the witness of the Apostles and their successors.

The apostles were not writing doctrines of men. I know this because the indwelling Spirit confirms that He is the author and they were merely scribes. As for those who do not consider Matthew to be inspired by God, not everyone has “ears to hear” or “eyes to see” as Christ explains in Matthew 13 and Paul further discusses in Romans 11.

We look at the witness and determine for ourselves if God is active in that person.

Personally, I use a three prong test for statements made by one who declares ‘thus sayeth the Lord’.

The first is the fruits of the Spirit. As Jesus said in Matthew 7 a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. In Galatians 5, Paul names the fruits of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness and self-control. If I don’t see all of these fruits in the life of the speaker, the message is ignored.

Secondly, I apply the Berean test spoken of in Acts 17; testing everything said against the whole of Scripture. The message must agree. And finally, I pray and meditate on the statement and ask the indwelling Spirit to lead me to Truth. He has never, ever disappointed me.

All of this is secondary of course to the test of the spirits – if the speaker denies the deity of Christ, I cannot endure anything else he says.

The bottom line is that I want to know what God says, not what I think He says or what someone else thinks He says.

I find it difficult to believe people's so-called "moving in the Spirit". I prefer to build my faith on something a bit more stronger.

We only differ on what we consider to be “stronger”. The three prong test above is my personal bar – whereas you trust others. A lot of people do, jo kus, and I am confident for those whose leaders are singularly and absolutely focused on Christ. But for those whose leaders are focused on something or someone else, I pray.

Peter had a direct Spiritual revelation from the Father that Jesus Christ is Lord (Matthew 16:17) and he walked with Jesus and learned directly from Him, as did John and the others. But the revelation Paul received was quite literally blinding and his walk was different:

But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. – Galatians 1:15-19

The bottom line is that it is ok to be different.

Thank you so much for your kind words and all your profound insights! Indeed, we must all work out our own salvation with fear and trembling as the Scriptures say.

Nonetheless, we should listen to Jo Kus' caution because it is so hard for younger Christians to distinguish between spiritual and emotional. "Because I feel it." is not on the same level as "Because I have tested the spirits to see if they be of God."

Indeed, feelings are not at all the same thing as Spiritual revelations and it is very difficult for Christians early in their walk with the Lord to discern the difference, to know when God is speaking to them v. when they are hearing their own self-will.

And it could be that many young Christians are most certain of their own sensory perceptions, reason or are more comfortable trusting the wisdom of others. Organized church congregations, hierarchies and assemblies serve that need extremely well. Families and friends have served that purpose as well in those countries where Christianity was outlawed for so long.

And it could be that as we walk with the Lord for many years, we sense that an assembly has occurred when two or more Christians meet in casual conversation and speak of Christ – whether in person, over the phone or even on the internet. A lot of threads around here are very much like Bible study groups, small chapels and prayer services.

Many believe in a church-less Christianity… There is no church-less Christianity with validity. The Lord WANTS us to work through the difficulties of interpersonal conflicts, so we can demonstrate that through His power unity can be achieved. And when the world sees our love for one another, then they will believe that God truly did send Jesus Christ.

So very true on all points! Both the visible, organized church and the body of Christ regardless of how it might be dispersed around the earth and in heaven – are absolutely necessary.

Thank you for your considerate reply, dear betty boop. I so appreciate the obvious gifts Our Maker has bestowed on thee! I delight in discussing these weighty matters in love of the Living Word!

I affirm that Mary was the chosen (prepared, consecrated) woman through whom Messiah, the Son of David came--He who had been promised to the first woman, Eve. Every woman in all of Israel's history knew such a woman would be chosen, but not when, and few knew how. This is Mary's exaltation and singular honor. It was also her exclusive, unique, and very heavy burden.

God Himself made this concretely possible--He alone is the Potter, we the vessels, prepared for His Purposes:

[F]or the Mighty One has done great things for me—
holy is his name.
Mary's testimony, Luke 1:49

I am sorry that Mary is "deemphasized almost at times to the point of contempt." This should not be, and would not be (in the balance of the created order) were she not in other regards esteemed as "Coredemptress," "Mother of God," or "Queen of Heaven."

Mary is the very nexus between the Old and New Testaments.

I see Jesus bestowing this honor on John the baptizer in the Gospel of Matthew and also in Mark.

She is the model of perfected human purity: She emptied herself of all mortal aims and purposes other than to magnify the Lord, and to do His will....She never left His side.

As honored among women as she was, Mary also stumbled on the Rock of Offense:

Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you."
"Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked.
Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."
Mark 3:31-35 (also related in Matthew and Luke)

By this he did not mean, "Hey, John -- take care of Mom for me, 'cause I'm out of here"

The verses in John 19:26-27 read:

When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

Because "behold thy mother" is followed by "from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home," I conclude just what you deny.

Perhaps this will always be so. May the One God Who Is Father of All lead both you and I into perfect understanding. May our reverent interpretation of sacred things not lead to the abandonment of the most sacred which is love. Amen.

[ I think that Mary is the line of transmission, because among the Jews, one's geneological heritage is transmitted through the mother. ]

Important if you are following Jesus earthy body that died(as some do).. But Jesus father is important if you're following Jesus Spirit that lived.. Jesus spent his time in that earthy body trying to convince all that he was more than that.. Actually he tried to convince ALL that ((WE)) are more than that(our bodies) too.. Some do indeed worship or even lament Jesus earthy body and miss the Spirit completely..

According to Paul Jesus earthly body was of no account.. its his NEW Body that matters.. You can tell fairly quickly whether someone is stuck on stupid with Jesus earthly body or seek and see his New Body.. He does have a New Body.. I've seen it.. Mary the mother Jesus draws to the earthy body, The father of Jesus draws to the heavenly one.. the new Body..

Its quite profound this imagery.. I don't see venerating Mary to be beneficial.. in any way.. and quite negative actually in several ways.. Buts thats just me.. There is something about it that offends me.. I don't know what, its visceral.. Almost like when saying, "Its raining cats and dogs", watching one run to the window to see pets falling from the sky.. like that..

The Body of Christ is real indwelt by the Spirit of Christ.. his earthly body was merely a vehicle for his personal Spirit, for a time.. until the freight train was constructed.. As he labored hard and for 33 years to explain to us.. Pity that some venerate the dead(stuck on stupid) and deny the living Christ and his body.. Like some venerated Moses(Jews) but missed the vehicle of the living Christ.. and are NOT on board the Christ Train(his body) to the heavenlies.. Veneration of mary offends me viscerally.. deeply.. I don't know why.. But then I don't give out the tickets..

PENITENCE-IMPENITENCE

(B) RETURNING TO GOD

(2) Promises to those who come in Contrition

#Ps 34:18 51:17 Isa 57:15 66:2 Joe 2:13 Zec 12:10 2Co 7:10

Psalms 34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
Psalms 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
Isaiah 66:2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
Joel 2:13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

What does Penitence do? It leads to.

CONFESSION-DENIAL

(C) CONFESSION OF SIN

Proverbs 28:13 ¶ He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
Jeremiah 3:13 Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Confession leads to.

REPENTANCE

Ezekiel 14:6 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.
Ezekiel 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Daniel 4:27 Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor; if it may be a lengthening of thy tranquillity.
Hosea 14:2 Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.
Joel 2:12 ¶ Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
Malachi 3:7 ¶ Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
Matthew 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Luke 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

These are Baptist Doctrine based on the Word of God.

we should listen to Jo Kus' caution because it is so hard for younger Christians to distinguish between spiritual and emotional. "Because I feel it." is not on the same level as "Because I have tested the spirits to see if they be of God."

Thank you for recognizing this. The Spirit of God is not behind every thought we have. And certainly, He doesn't speak to us only through emotional spasms and good feelings. Often times, He speaks to us much more reservedly - as a whisper. It takes proper discernment to figure out His will.

we can receive great assistance via the collective stored wisdom and tradition of the Church.

What is sad is so many people refuse to read or accept their wisdom on Christ, BUT, these same people will say they believe the Nicean Creed, or some of the Councils. There seems to be a disconnect here. It is important that we, as Christians, do not forget our heritage. We receive our paradigm from the teachings passed down from our ancestors. To better understand it, we should not discard all traditions merely because Christ mentions traditions in a negative sense when Pharisees twist traditions away from God.

There is no church-less Christianity with validity. The Lord WANTS us to work through the difficulties of interpersonal conflicts, so we can demonstrate that through His power unity can be achieved. And when the world sees our love for one another, then they will believe that God truly did send Jesus Christ.

Good points. A Church-less Christianity is not Christianity of the Scriptures, nor of our 2000 year heritage. God desired that we come to Him through and with other people. "Jesus and me" alone is not the Gospel message.

Brother in Christ

That is very true. God comes to us in many ways, some "oral" and others "written". God's Spirit works within us to help us discern His will for us. What I have in mind, however, is people who separate themselves from the Apostle's teachings as given by their successors:

He (God) made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. (Eph 3:3-7)

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers, For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (Eph 4:11-13)

And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also (2 Tim 2:2)

There are many examples such as these - examples that show that the Church was to teach people God's Word and interpret it for others when people disagreed. How are we to be humble like Christ when we pick and choose what to believe and follow? The idea of "self-teaching" by the Spirit was unknown to the writers of Scripture. THEY believed that the Word was to be proclaimed, not read and interpreted outside of the Apostles' teachings

The reason why you know that Matthew is the Word of God is because the Church has confirmed it without doubt. As you noted above, there are many writings that can also inspire within us love, can be uplifting, and so forth. But that alone is not enough to know "this is from God", because we are fallen humans - we cannot make such decisions infallibly. We need an objective authority. And Christ has given us one through the Apostles and their successors.

The bottom line is that I want to know what God says, not what I think He says or what someone else thinks He says.

We all should. But by relying on ourselves and what may or may not be the Spirit "speaking" to you inside, you are relying on a merely subjective means of identifying God. Discernment is not easy, and often requires others to help us, whether it is other friends, Scriptures, extra-Scriptural writings, and so forth. We rarely act within a vacuum, we are social beings. Proverbs 3:5-7 mentions that we should not place our faith in our own perceptions - spiritual direction is not only a private matter.

The bottom line is that it is ok to be different.

My intent was not to question how you come to God or walk in the Spirit, but how we identify the various letters available and say "that is Scritpure" and "that one is not Scriptures". Without the Church, we all would not have one New Testament. Forgetting that the Church infallibly declared the entire Canon of the Bible is dangerous - because then we forget that we base our ideas on what God says on an unknown source. Thus, it is too easy to forget that this same source believed that its Scriptures were meant to say such things as "the Eucharist is the literal Body of Christ". Private interpretation does not lead to the Spirit of Truth, but contentions (Prov 13:10)

Regards

I see Jesus bestowing this honor on John the baptizer in the Gospel of Matthew and also in Mark.
Good morning, dear sister! I do agree with you that John the Baptist is the "line of transmission"
from the Old to the New Testament on the spiritual side of the Incarnation. But Jesus was fully man,
fully human also, just as he was fully God. On the mortal side of the Incarnation,
I think that Mary is the line of transmission, because among the Jews,
one's genealogical heritage is transmitted through the mother.
Them be my thoughts, anyhoot!

271 posted on 01/31/2006 7:17:35 AM MST by betty boop

You are correct in that the linage is through Mary from David.

However because among the Jews,
one's geneological heritage is transmitted through the mother.

It absolutely not scriptural; it is Rabbinical only.

In order to understand how Miriam can pass David's throne to Y'shua,
you need to review Zelophehad and his daughters
in Numbers 26, 27,36 Joshua 17 & 1 Chronicles 7

This is the only exception for daughters inheriting in the Holy Word of G-d.

B’shem Y’shua

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