I don't know if it is cherry picked or not. I find, in the passage you speak of, an insistence on the Part of Christ, that seems to lend itself to the literal aspects of it, which the Roman Catholics are attached to. The fact that many of His disciples left over this does not seem to imply a disagreement with the figurative aspects of Christ's command, but instead with the literal aspects. This subject has been discussed and discussed and discussed, and I'm sure I'm bringing nothing new to the table, but I think the idea of the Real Presence is not easily defended or refuted. The one part of that Scripture that made me think I might have misapprehended the whole thing is the following: It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.*
As a Calvinist I take it seriously, we are commanded to remember the crucifixion and death of our substitute, Christ, and to do that as God ordained in the O.T. with the Passover. it is a solemn remembrance where God is present to the elect.
Can you explain how Calvinists do this?
Indeed being Catholic is a part of the family and cultural identity of many people. One is for example an "Irish Catholic" in WNY . When I left the church the first thing my father said to me was "Why aren't you Catholic anymore, we are a Catholic family ?" He could not understand the spiritual significance of my conversion because he had never experienced it.
Try being a Roman, and a Roman Catholic. Certainly can't speak for your Dad, but during the time of his initiation into the Faith, Catholics were to be seen and not heard. Questions, innocent or not, were treated with suspicions of treason. One was conscripted, in a manner of speaking. That does a lot for the Organization, very little for the individual, IMO.
My idea of God when I was a kid was of someone who took names, dates, and number of offences. That's how God was basically presented to me, and probably to your Dad too. That being said, God flourishes in the lives of many people who were introduced to God in the same way, The Holy Spirit knows no proscription.
My Mother is one of those people, and while I don't think she'd celebrate my uncrossing the Tiber, I don't believe she ever believed that Catholics have an iron-clad handle on the truth, and she would accept, and probably understand my decision. I tend to agree with C.S.Lewis too, when a Church claims to be the sole repository of truth and originality, examination of such claims is in order.
Thanks for the link.
And what did you or I do to "earn" those gifts and cards? How were WE worthy ? There is an expectation of money and gifts connected with it, people talk of "still having their first communion money" . The fact that is a Catholic cultural norm says much to me.
My parents used my First Communion money (which I hadn't even recalled until you brought it up) to buy a much needed mattress. It was meaningless (other than it was a help) to them and me, relative to the event. But money does taint many things.
God bless, RNMom, and all those you love.
Please read the 6th chapter of John from verse 1 until the end.
Jesus preformed a miracle where thousands were fed bread. He then went away from the crowd.
The crowd followed him, but not because they sought Christ as teacher or Savior, not because they knew he was the Christ, but because they wanted to get their stomachs full of bread.
Read the rebuke of Christ to them
Jhn 6:25 And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?
Jhn 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
It was then he began to teach that they were looking for a miracle that would fill their stomachs ( as did the nation of Israel in the desert) . They wanted their temporal needs met.
Jhn 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
Jhn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Jesus laid out that salvation was by FAITH, and that was a work of the Father
Then then decided to put Christ to a test ...Give us PROOF. THEY brought up the manna ..
Jhn 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
Jhn 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
Jesus clarified where salvation comes from
Jhn 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven
he was pointing out that the "bread from heaven " that kept their fathers only gave them physical life.. HE on the other hands was sent from the father to give them eternal spiritual life.
They did not "get it" they were looking for REAL bread to give them life as had happened in the desert, they were looking for tangible bread like manna
Jhn 6:34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
Jesus then patiently explained to them that His flesh is life for the world.. His crucified body was what was going to bring eternal life
Jhn 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Jhn 6:36 But I said unto you,That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The entire message is on salvation by faith .
The listeners did not get it , they were hung up on another point .
Jhn 6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
Jhn 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? Notice the focus of the crowd was not on Him being the BREAD or eating Him but that He said he came down from heaven ( a claim of divinity )
Jhn 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Jhn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Jhn 6:48 I am that bread of life.
Jhn 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
Jhn 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
Jhn 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Jhn 6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?
Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Jhn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. Jhn 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
Jhn 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Jhn 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
Keep in mind He had already taught at some length that He that believed on Him would be saved.. He has already taught that he that is taught by the Father come to him and are saved.. So to interpret this as other than a metaphor of being saved by His soon to be broken body and his shed blood, by internalizing the fact of the atonement in faith is not a good reading and not the one understood by the new church
This is from jamison
Here, for the first time in this high discourse, our Lord explicitly introduces His sacrificial death--for only rationalists can doubt this not only as that which constitutes Him the Bread of life to men, but as THAT very element IN HIM WHICH POSSESSES THE LIFE-GIVING VIRTUE.--"From this time we hear no more (in this discourse) of "Bread"; this figure is dropped, and the reality takes its place" [STIER]. The words "I will give" may be compared with the words of institution at the Supper, "This is My body which is given for you" ( Luk 22:19 ), or in Paul's report of it, "broken for you" ( 1Cr 11:24 ).
Jhn 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
Jhn 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
If they were offended at that, he was saying wait until you hear the rest
Jhn 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Jhn 6:66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
They did not like hearing that salvation had to be given them , much like the manna in the desert, it was totally a gift of the Father. They could not do anything on their own to earn it . This was blasphemy to the law oriented Jews that felt their salvation was based on their will, their law keeping etc
To make an attempt to make this a teaching on the Lords supper misses the mark. Christ was still alive and in His flesh and 2nd he was, by your reckoning , telling them to do something they could not do because the Lords Supper had not been instituted yet,it is a spiritual eating and drinking that is here spoken of, not a sacramental.
In a manner similar to the way the jews celebrated the passover.
We come to the table, examine our consciences and prayerfully meditate on the sacrifice of the cross for our sin. Jesus said we were to do this in remembrance of him, and that is how we approach the Lords table. God is present to us as he has promised in the congregation and in His word.
Indeed being Catholic is a part of the family and cultural identity of many people. One is for example an "Irish Catholic" in WNY . When I left the church the first thing my father said to me was "Why aren't you Catholic anymore, we are a Catholic family ?" He could not understand the spiritual significance of my conversion because he had never experienced it.
Try being a Roman, and a Roman Catholic. Certainly can't speak for your Dad, but during the time of his initiation into the Faith, Catholics were to be seen and not heard. Questions, innocent or not, were treated with suspicions of treason. One was conscripted, in a manner of speaking. That does a lot for the Organization, very little for the individual, IMO.
My idea of God when I was a kid was of someone who took names, dates, and number of offences. That's how God was basically presented to me, and probably to your Dad too. That being said, God flourishes in the lives of many people who were introduced to God in the same way, The Holy Spirit knows no proscription.
I disagree my friend. God has indeed proscribed the method of salvation clearly in His word.
My Mother is one of those people, and while I don't think she'd celebrate my uncrossing the Tiber, I don't believe she ever believed that Catholics have an iron-clad handle on the truth, and she would accept, and probably understand my decision. I tend to agree with C.S.Lewis too, when a Church claims to be the sole repository of truth and originality, examination of such claims is in order.
I agree with CS Lewis on that. Salvation is not a denomination driven, it is Christ driven.
Thanks for the link.
Pink is an interesting read. he was a prolific writer (a baptist not a Presbyterian:)
And what did you or I do to "earn" those gifts and cards? How were WE worthy ? There is an expectation of money and gifts connected with it, people talk of "still having their first communion money" . The fact that is a Catholic cultural norm says much to me.
My parents used my First Communion money (which I hadn't even recalled until you brought it up) to buy a much needed mattress. It was meaningless (other than it was a help) to them and me, relative to the event. But money does taint many things.
My problem with the posture of the Roman church on this is it makes man worthy of reward for being obedient to a command to do this in "memory " of me. The white dress/veil indicates a "purity" in the one receiving him, when in truth He did not come for or to the pure, but to and for sinners. So the white indicates that anyone anytime could be worthy in their own person to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
God bless, RNMom, and all those you love.
God bless you too! I was glad to see you around. We are due for some cold weather this coming week, so bundle up warm my friend:)