Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

John Cassian’s Response to Augustinianism
www.monergism.com ^ | Unknown | E. A. Costa

Posted on 01/17/2006 6:56:20 AM PST by HarleyD

Introduction

John Cassian was a zealous monk whose theology (unfortunately, one might say) has been massively influential on the church’s understanding of the whole of the gospel since the fifth century. His particular theology (commonly known as semi-Pelagianism), which was developed largely in response to Augustine’s doctrines of predestination, grace, and free will, has been adopted by many Christians—academics, clergy and lay people alike—throughout the centuries.Two major influences were at work in Cassian’s life and teachings. First, Greek neo-platonic philosophical theology shaped his understanding of anthropology in a way that prevented him from being able to engage Augustine on the level that he should have. And second, his intense devotion to the ascetic chastity of the monastery created a platform upon which his theology could develop, yet in a way that was almost entirely sub-biblical. The result of Cassian’s theological contributions to the church has been the obscuring of the God of the Bible in the vision of His people.

Cassian and His Work

Cassianus was born (probably in Provence) around 360 A.D., and most likely assumed the name “Iohannes” (John) at his baptism or admittance to the monastic life. [1] He died in Massilia of Gaul (present-day Marseilles, France), where he had spent his most productive years as a monk, in 435. [2] His birthplace is uncertain, and little is known about his parents, education, or childhood, primarily because of his own silence regarding these in his writings.

It is known, however, that he had a rigorous education, as evidenced by his fluent bilingualism and familiarity with church fathers. Western-born, Latin was probably his native tongue; yet much of his thought is influenced by Greek writers, and much of his life was spent in the East, where he derived his perspective on monasticism. “[H]is entire achievement was built on” his bilingualism, [3] as it offered him access to all major writers, and undoubtedly enabled him to address any major audience. Much exposure to Greek philosophical theology, together with his zeal for ascetic chastity, would figure prominently in Cassian’s response to Augustine, as shall be discussed later.

Cassian spent many years as a monk with his companion, Germanus, in Bethlehem of Palestine and various places in Egypt with the desert fathers before they went to Constantinople. There Cassian studied under Bishop Chrysostom, until the teacher was banished from Constantinople. Cassian and Germanus then carried a petition on his behalf from the clergy of Constantinople to Pope Innocent in Rome, where Cassian made the acquaintance of one Archdeacon Leo, later to become Pope Leo the Great. [4] Eventually Cassian removed to Massilia, where monastic life had become increasingly popular during more recent years, in order to develop monasticism—he established two new monasteries—and to write. [5]

In Massilia Cassian, now an abbot, wrote his three major works: 1) his Institutes (De Institutis Coenobiorum et de Octo Principalium Vitiorum Remediis Libri XII), which detail rules for the monastic life; 2) his Conferences (Collationes XXIV), which record conversations with abbots during his time in Egypt; [6] and 3) On the Incarnation against Nestorius (De Incarnatione Domini contra Nestorium), a work of seven books written at the request of Pope Leo. [7] In this last writing Cassian is the first to point out similarities between Nestorianism and Pelagianism. Of certain Nestorians he writes, “in saying that Jesus Christ lived as a mere man without any stain of sin, they actually went so far as to declare that men could also be without sin if they liked.” [8] The high estimation of man’s sufficiency and strength of will that is pervasive in Pelagian writings is applied to the Jesus of Nestorianism, who was supposed to have overcome sin by the sheer power of His merely human will, becoming Christ only at His baptism. [9] This section of De Incarnatione clearly indicates Cassian’s desire to distance himself from “the teaching or rather the evil deeds of Pelagius.” [10]

The ‘Problem’ of Augustinianism

Augustine’s influence and authority had been growing since the official defeat of Pelagianism, which was condemned in 418 at the 16th Council of Carthage. [11] The ‘initial spark’ was provided for the Cassian controversy when one of Augustine’s letters, concerning predestination and prevenient (and therefore irresistible) grace, came into the possession of monks at Adrumetum. Dispute arose among them over these doctrines, and they eventually sent a dispatch to Hippo to ask Augustine about the fuller meaning of his writings. [12] So Augustine wrote De Gratia et Libero Arbitrii (On Grace and Free Will) and De Correptione et Gratia (On Rebuke and Grace) in 426, with the hope of clarifying the matter. [13]

Of course, though this may have settled the matter for the monks at Adrumetum, the doctrines were not so easily incorporated into the life of thought at Massilia. The monks there, of whom Cassian can be considered chief, agreed with Augustine on many issues—even against Pelagianism. But they distrusted his teachings on predestination, grace and free will as a result of his letters to the monks at Adrumetum. [14] “They said that what Augustine taught as to the calling of God’s elect according to His own purpose was tantamount to fatalism, was contrary to the teaching of the fathers and the true Church doctrine, and, even if true, should not be preached, because of its tendency to drive men into indifference or despair.” [15]

Augustine taught that original sin had left humanity in a state of death (not just weakness), which necessitated the symmetrical actual giving of life in salvation by God. The will is alive and free, but its only function is to manifest the desire of a corrupt heart in a choice. So, in a sense, the will is utterly bound to sin, since men always and without exception love the darkness rather than the light, and this is death for them. The life came as God—of His own good pleasure, not motivated by anything He saw in sinners—regenerated the hearts of sinners, causing them to love God more than sin, by His Spirit (c.f. Ezek. 11:19-20; 36:22-28; Jer. 31:33-34; 32:38-41; 1 John 4:19). “This grace, therefore, which is hiddenly bestowed in human hearts by the Divine gift, is rejected by no hard heart, because it is given for the sake of first taking away the hardness of the heart.” [16] Augustine explained that God did this for some and not for others by referring to Romans 9, where God says that He is willing to exert His wrath, yet has patience in order to display the glory of His grace toward His elect. [17] These are the doctrines of predestination, grace and free will that Cassian felt jeopardized important truth about God and humanity. And though Augustine wrote convincing treatises on these doctrines in response to the complaint of the Massilians (De Praedestinatione Sanctorum and De Dono Perseverantiae; On the Predestination of the Saints and On the Gift of Perseverance [18] ), they would not be persuaded, and continued in their efforts to correct the doctrines they perceived as a threat to the life of the church.

Cassian’s ‘Solution’ Examined

Most of Cassian’s relevant arguments are laid out in the 13th book of his Conferences, which is a record of a conversation with Abbot Chaeremon entitled “On the Protection of God,” though he does touch upon the same doctrines, to lesser extents, in several other places. Methodologically, it must be said—to his commendation—that he uses Scripture with great frequency. For Cassian, and others in opposition to strong Augustinianism, it seems there were two factors of primary concern in the debate. First, being a monk whose daily life consisted of disciplined asceticism for the sake of chastity (moral purity), Cassian feared that Augustine’s doctrines would give an overwhelming sense of powerlessness and despondence in such pursuits. This, in turn, might lead to ethical irresponsibility (the lack of the feeling of accountability). [19]

It is of utmost importance to note that Cassian “positions his analyses of grace and free will within his discussions of chastity.” [20] The crucial issue for him was the empowerment for the pursuit of holiness. So great was his concern for chastity, in fact, that earlier in his life Cassian gave up the solitary life of an Anchorite monk in Egypt for that of a Coenobite in community with other monks, “in order that he might have the opportunity of practicing the virtues of obedience and subjection, which seemed out of the reach of the solitary.” [21] Quite unlike Pelagius, however, Cassian insisted that divine grace was absolutely necessary for spiritual progress. “How foolish and wicked then it is to attribute any good action to our own diligence and not to God’s grace and assistance, is clearly shown by the Lord’s saying, which lays down that no one can show forth the fruits of the Spirit without His inspiration and co-operation.” [22] Instead, he sought some middle ground of cooperation between man’s willful initiative and God’s enabling grace (libero arbitrio semper co-operatur).

In order to maintain his position that man must be capable of some motion toward God, he proposed that the will was not dead in sin. Instead, the free will was only severely weakened (infirmitas liberi arbitrii) as a result of the fall. Man was indeed capable of generating a small spark of initiative toward the good by the power of his own will, which must be then strengthened and aided by God to produce any actual good. Having a decidedly Eastern anthropology, it is understandable that Cassian would be more open to “natural possibility” than the Western Augustine. [23] Strangely enough, Cassian saw examples in Scripture of both monergistic (i.e. Matthew and Paul) and synergistic (i.e. Zacchaeus) beginnings of faith without any apparent difficulty. This is interesting, since, as R. C. Sproul observes, “The difference between Augustine and Cassian is the difference between monergism and synergism at the beginning of salvation.” [24] Nevertheless, Cassian was able to write, “when He sees in us some beginnings of a good will, He at once enlightens it and strengthens it and urges it on towards salvation, increasing that which He Himself implanted or which He sees to have arisen from our own efforts.” [25] This kind of assertion is common in his Conferences, and betrays his lack of understanding, at some level, of the issues at hand.

Second, and to a lesser degree, Cassian was concerned that the Augustinian view of particular (electing) grace stood in blatant opposition to the “clear” biblical truth of the universal availability of salvation. [26] He saw God’s love being extended to all in the universal offering of salvation, and could not stand the idea that God’s love would be so arbitrarily selective. “For if He willeth not that one of His little ones should perish, how can we imagine without grievous blasphemy that He does not generally will all men, but only some instead of all to be saved?” [27]

As a result, Cassian’s theology of God’s love required something of a fair chance for all people. If God really loved people (in the way Cassian thought), He would not permit the unfairness of a completely disabled will while demanding moral perfection. So original sin could not really have had the effect that Augustine claimed. Concordantly, prevenient grace would really be quite unnecessary, if people had the ability to initiate their own faith. And if prevenient grace were not a reality, then neither would be an Augustinian understanding of predestination. If people could really turn themselves toward God by their own will (as they must be able to do, if God is really fair and wants all to be saved), then God would only have to see (or foresee) who would create in themselves the spark of faith, and predestine them to eternal life on that basis.

Cassian’s ‘Solution’ Refuted

Having ascertained Cassian’s main reasons for disagreeing with Augustine in these matters, a few presuppositions or foundations of his perspective become evident which warrant critique. First, it is most apparent from his great concern for the advance of disciplined chastity that Cassian’s view of salvation is more sanctification-oriented than justification- or reconciliation-oriented. Whereas Augustine is generally arguing for a specific soteriological position (i.e., who makes the first move to restore relationship between God and men?), Cassian seems not to be able to think in the same category. Columba Stewart attributes this to the fact that Western skills were honed by the Pelagian controversy, while Cassian—being an Eastern thinker—has simply not been so influenced. [28] Thinking so much as he does about chastity, he almost seems to treat God as a means to the end of the perfection of holiness. This is a major fault, as it fosters a fundamentally more anthropocentric view of salvation than theocentric.

Second, and closely related to the first, is the weak view of sin and grace in Cassian. Sin for him seems to be only a violation of command and conscience. For Augustine, and in Scripture, the essence of sin is more than this—it is a rejection of the supremacy of the glory of God for delight in things of infinitely less worth… and therefore much more dishonoring to God. Accordingly, Cassian’s view of grace is more Pelagian than Augustinian. For him grace is merely an agent of enabling unto holiness (seeing Christ more as an instructor than a savior). He would likely have a low view of the substitutionary atonement of Christ.

Third, there seems to be in Cassian the attempt to maintain some level of autonomy from God in the process of salvation. This is perhaps the point where Augustine sees Cassianism “as necessarily implying the basal idea of Pelagianism,” [29] thereby referring to it as “semi-Pelagianism.” Indeed, prior to regeneration we are all born Pelagians, [30] at our religious “best” hoping to commend ourselves to God by some means other than Christ and the total reliance upon the sovereign grace of God.

Fourth, and more commonly ignored among historical and systematic theologians than the other points, is the pernicious error of an unexamined, confused, unbiblical anthropology. It is obvious from Cassian’s Conferences that he sees the will as self-moved, self-initiated, and able to incline itself (albeit only slightly and weakly) toward the good. Also, he muddles the functions of the faculties of the soul in various places, not demonstrating any clear understanding of the will as a function of the heart, or of the desires as determining the direction of the will. For him, a man’s being and doing are reversed from the biblical perspective: “for each man must incline to one side or the other in accordance with the character of his actions.”

The Official Outcome

Prosper of Aquitaine, lay friend of Augustine, took up the defense of monergism against Cassian’s synergism from the beginning. He had alerted Augustine to the trouble in Massilia, motivating the bishop to write the two last works of his life against semi-Pelagianism (De Praedestinatione Sanctorum and De Dono Perseverantiae). And shortly after Augustine’s death he, with his (otherwise unknown) companion, Hilary, petitioned Pope Celestine to condemn Cassian’s teachings. However, they encountered difficulty in

In 432 Prosper wrote Contra Collatorem (Against the Author of the Conferences) as he saw Cassianism spreading in Gaul, expressing the hope that Pope Sixtus would condemn the teachings. [32] In this work he focuses on Cassian’s Eastern tendencies as detrimental to a right understanding of the human will.

Semi-Pelagianism experienced some small official successes in Gaul at the Synods of Arles and Lyons in 472, but in 496 “Pope Gelasius I sanctioned the writings of Augustine and Prosper and condemned those of Cassian….” [33] Eventually, at the Council of Arausiacum (Orange: 529) semi-Pelagianism was officially condemned, and the church adopted a mostly-Augustinian stance. [34]

The Abiding Influence

Tragically for the church, Augustinianism was being softened by the bishop’s successors before semi-Pelagianism was even officially condemned. [35] It was not held to strongly enough for the fundamental tenets of Augustine’s theology to take deeper root in the church. The resulting influence of Cassian has been widespread and long lasting. For, while it is true that the Council of Orange was a triumph over the “semi-Pelagian denial of the necessity of prevenient grace for salvation,” Robert L. Reymond observes,

And so the more complete majesty of God’s work in saving a people for Himself out of sin has gone through the centuries half-veiled, until the Day when the last vestiges of our self-reliance are stripped away, and all the earth trembles at the total sovereignty of the God whose pleasure it was to save some, sola gratia.

[1] Edgar C. S. Gibson, preface to The Works of John Cassian, by John Cassian, trans. Edgar C. S. Gibson, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, 2nd ser., vol. 11, ed. Philip Schaff, accessed through The Master Christian Library, ver. 8 (Rio, WI: AGES Software, Inc., 2000), 375. [2] The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1954), s.v. “Cassianus Johannus,” http://www.ccel.org/php/disp.php?authorID=schaff&bookID=encyc02&page=435&view= [3] Columba Stewart, Cassian the Monk, Oxford Studies in Historical Theology (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1998), 5. [4] Gibson, 383. [5] Stewart, 5. [6] The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1908 ed., s.v. “John Cassian,” http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03404a.htm [7] Gibson, 383. [8] John Cassian, On the Incarnation against Nestorius, in The Works of John Cassian, trans. with preface Edgar C. S. Gibson, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, 2nd ser., vol. 11, ed. Philip Schaff, accessed through The Master Christian Library, ver. 8 (Rio, WI: AGES Software, Inc., 2000), 1:3. [9] Gibson., 387. [10] Cassian., Against Nestorius, 1:4. [11] Robert L. Reymond, A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith, 2d ed. rev. & updated (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1998), 468-9. [12] B. B. Warfield, introduction to Saint Augustine’s Anti-Pelagian Works, by St. Augustine, trans. Peter Holmes & Robert Ernest Wallis, rev. B. B. Warfield, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, 1st ser., vol. 5, ed. Philip Schaff, accessed through The Master Christian Library, ver. 8 (Rio, WI: AGES Software, Inc., 2000), 89-90. [13] Gibson, 388. [14] Ibid., 389. [15] Warfield, 97-8. [16] St. Augustine, The Predestination of the Saints, in Saint Augustine’s Anti-Pelagian Works, by St. Augustine, trans. Peter Holmes & Robert Ernest Wallis, rev. with intro. B. B. Warfield, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, 1st ser., vol. 5, ed. Philip Schaff, accessed through The Master Christian Library, ver. 8 (Rio, WI: AGES Software, Inc., 2000), ch. 13, emphasis mine. [17] Ibid., ch. 14. See Rom. 9:22-23. For an excellent treatment of the righteousness of God in His sovereign election based on this passage, see John Piper, The Justification of God: An Exegetical & Theological Study of Romans 9:1-23, 2nd ed. (Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 1993), especially pp. 183-216. [18] Gibson, 389 [19] Earle E. Cairns, Christianity through the Centuries, 3rd ed. rev. & expanded (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996), 132. [20] Stewart, 76. [21] Gibson, 378. [22] Cassian, The Conferences of John Cassian, in The Works of John Cassian, 3:16. [23] Stewart, 19. [24] R. C. Sproul, Willing to Believe (Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 1997), 73. [25] Cassian, Conferences, 13:8. [26] Sproul, 70. [27] Cassian, Conferences, 13:7. [28] Stewart, 78. [29] Warfield, 93. [30] Reymond, 469. [31] Stewart, 20-21. [32] Gibson, 390-391. [33] Sproul, 75. [34] J. N. D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines, rev. ed. (San Francisco: Harper Collins, 1978), 371-2. [35] Sproul, 75. [36] Reymond, 469


TOPICS: History; Mainline Protestant; Theology
KEYWORDS: augustine; cassian; easternorthodox; semipelagianism
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 281-295 next last

1 posted on 01/17/2006 6:56:22 AM PST by HarleyD
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: drstevej; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; Wrigley; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; jboot; AZhardliner; ...

History article...


2 posted on 01/17/2006 6:58:06 AM PST by HarleyD (Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Kolokotronis

Ping!


3 posted on 01/17/2006 7:11:44 AM PST by Pyro7480 (Sancte Joseph, terror daemonum, ora pro nobis!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD
Great article.


This is a ch__ch. What's missing?

4 posted on 01/17/2006 7:46:34 AM PST by rdb3 (What it is is what it was.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Pyro7480; HarleyD; kosta50
Thanks for the ping, P and the article itself, HD. Two quick observations because I'm at the office.

First, apologetics aside, this is a good, if limited, exposition of +John Cassian's work.

Second, reliance on the Council of Orange and the Council of Carthage, while certainly a fair thing to do, must be tempered with the understanding that neither of those councils were ecumenical and thus not at all binding on the entire Church. They were completely local councils.

Third, while +Augustine was not proficient in Greek and had only a very limited knowledge of the writings of the Eastern Fathers, or indeed of the New Testament itself save in translation, +John Cassian was fully fluent in both Latin and Greek. I cannot stress enough the importance of this because it goes to the very heart of what +Augustine wrote. Take for example the word "sin". In NT Greek the word is "amartia" which means "to miss the mark".

For Eastern Christians, the "mark" is Christ. Our created purpose, before the Fall, was to become like God. The Sin of Adam distorted humanity (indeed all of creation) to such an extent that we could not progess to fulfillment of that purpose. By the Incarnation, our potential to fulfill our created purpose was restored. Indeed, as +Athanasius the Great wrote, "God became man so that men might thereby become gods". Christ thus is called the "New Adam". Because Christ is the "mark", because in order to attain theosis we must become "like Christ", we need to respond to God's grace, which all the Eastern Fathers agree falls on the good and the evil equally, by living our lives in such a fashion as to "die to the self" and in that process, which is fueled only by God's grace, become like Christ. The Orthodox view of Judgment stems from this. We believe that we are not judged by our good or bad deeds at all but rather by how much like Christ we have become, have we "hit the mark" or not. Our good deeds and bad, by the time judgment rolls around, are quite meaningless, indeed they are merely tools to transform ourselves and thus become more open to grace. As you can see, with that sort of understanding of sin, especially of the Sin of Adam, coupled with the East's understanding of what exactly salvation is, there is bound to be quite a difference between Western and Eastern theology if Western theology fully adopts what we in the East believe to be +Augustine's erroneus concept of sin, again, especially, "Original Sin". Its the difference between failing of a purpose and "insulting" God.

5 posted on 01/17/2006 8:03:03 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD; Kolokotronis

This article is seriously misleading, even false. It concludes with a dishonest half-truth. Cassian's influence on the Western Church was indeed immense. But that influence did not include semipelagianism in any way shape or form. The article implies that it did, implies that medieval monks were closet pelagians and semipelagians.

This is simply not true. I wrote my dissertation on the theology of grace in medieval western monasticism. The very beginning of conversion to the monastic life was solely and totally a work of God's grace in the heart of the monk.

If you want to read about John Cassian, read Columba Stewart's book of that title or, if you prefer an honest account by a partisan Protestant, then read Owen Chadwick's older but very valuable book on John Cassian.

This monergism-site article is using John Cassian to try to score points against the Catholic heirs of Augustine, who did retain both the absolute priority of God's grace and the complete freedom of the human will to reject God. That is not semi-pelagianism.

And on this point, there is no quarrel between Eastern Orthodox and Western Catholics. Augustine's concept of original sin is faulty and was abandoned by the Western Church in the 11thc and following. But Augustine's teaching on sin otherwise is not false--he defends human freedom to the end and equally defends the absolute priority of God's grace. I really don't see why it was necessary to take out after Augustine on original sin in the context of this article.


6 posted on 01/17/2006 10:13:18 AM PST by Dionysiusdecordealcis
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Dionysiusdecordealcis

Dear Dionysiusdecordealcis,

"And on this point, there is no quarrel between Eastern Orthodox and Western Catholics. Augustine's concept of original sin is faulty and was abandoned by the Western Church in the 11thc and following."

I really appreciate many of your posts, and learn a lot from them.

If you have a little spare time, I'd be very appreciative if you could make a basic comparison and contrast between Augustine's view and that which is held by the Church.

If you don't have the time, that's okay.

Either way, thanks for all your contributions to this forum.


sitetest


7 posted on 01/17/2006 10:22:18 AM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Dionysiusdecordealcis; Kolokotronis; sitetest
Augustine's concept of original sin is faulty and was abandoned by the Western Church in the 11thc and following.

I don't know if I would agree that Augustine's concept of original sin was faulty. I would agree most of the Western Church abandoned it in the 11th century. There are those of us who still believe in original sin.

8 posted on 01/17/2006 12:29:10 PM PST by HarleyD (Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD
Thanks, Harley. The pursuit of men's honor unto themselves is as old as Adam. But it is still an error.

"And so the more complete majesty of God's work in saving a people for Himself out of sin has gone through the centuries half-veiled, until the Day when the last vestiges of our self-reliance are stripped away, and all the earth trembles at the total sovereignty of the God whose pleasure it was to save some, sola gratia.


9 posted on 01/17/2006 12:31:59 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (an ambassador in bonds)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Kolokotronis
Indeed, as +Athanasius the Great wrote, "God became man so that men might thereby become gods".

Incidentally, a series of sermons misattributed to Augustine paraphrases this statement of Athanasius and was incorporated into the theology of St. Thomas Aquinas's Summa under Augustine's name.

Cassian's influence in the West was driven by St. Benedict, whose rule mandates reading Cassian's Institutes and whose iconography often depicts him carrying that same work.

10 posted on 01/17/2006 1:04:48 PM PST by Dumb_Ox (http://kevinjjones.blogspot.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Dumb_Ox

St. John Cassian


11 posted on 01/17/2006 1:25:05 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: sitetest

Augustine was convinced by Rom. 5 (in the Old Latin, pre-Jerome translation which mistranslated slightly) that our solidarity in Adam (which is very true) required us to understand that the condition inherited from Adam was that of sin damning to hell. Anselm and then Innocent III began the process of distinguishing more clearly original "sin" from freely chosen actual sin after one knows the difference between right and wrong. Eventually this led to the position represented by Aquinas and others that, since only knowing, deliberate, free choice can condemn to hell and our original condition cannot involve knowing, deliberate choice, original "sin" does not condemn to punishment in hell but, if not remedied by baptism, does deprive of the beatific vision of God.

The original condition as described after Innocent, Aquinas, Anselm etc. is a lack of original righteousness. It seriously disorders us and even after this condition is removed by baptism, something of it still remains with us as the inclination to sin called concupiscence.

The Eastern Church Fathers always retained the term sin as referring solely to freely chosen actual wrongdoing and never applied "sin" to the original condition, though they agreed that the original condition is disordered--no longer capable, without first being redeemed, of being transformed into divine sonship (theosis/divinization), we come into the world subject to the disorder of mortality, subject to the trajectory leading to death--from which only Christ's work on the cross and resurrection saves us. This disordered original condition leads inexorably to actual sin as the child gains the use of reason and ability to distinguish right from wrong.


12 posted on 01/17/2006 2:05:06 PM PST by Dionysiusdecordealcis
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD

I believe in original sin too. I don't believe it is what you believe it is. I believe it is lack of original righteousness and does not condemn to hell. This is one place where you interpret Augustine correctly and where my difference with you is a difference also with Augustine. Much of the rest of the time I'm with Augustine and disagreeing with you, who misinterpret Augustine on free will.


13 posted on 01/17/2006 2:07:22 PM PST by Dionysiusdecordealcis
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Dionysiusdecordealcis
I believe in original sin too....I believe it is lack of original righteousness and does not condemn to hell.

Could you explain what you mean by "lack of original righteousness"? Are you saying the absence of good and evil?

14 posted on 01/17/2006 2:17:32 PM PST by HarleyD (Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD
Adam and Eve were created as graced creatures. In their original innocence they freely chose always to do right but they made their choices always only already assisted by grace. They freely chose but did so solely, only by grace. Human freedom can exist really and truly alongside and cooperating with the complete and all-powerful grace of God. As you will recognize, this is the Catholic sola gratia position asserted as applying from the very outset.

When, despite this overwhelming (but not coercive or puppeteering) assistance of God's grace, Adam and Eve knowingly did wrong, the graced righteousness that had up to that point surrounded them and drew, wooed, pushed, attracted them (but did not force or coerce) to do right, was gone. It had to be gone because God's righteousness which he had surrounded them with cannot coexist with active sin.

So they lost for themselves and every human being since them the original righteousness of their original graced existence. God comes back with redemptive grace, yes, ultimately the redemptive grace of the Cross but even before that preliminary forms of grace: salvation in crossing the Red Sea, the grace of the angel of death passing over the bloodmarked doorposts in Egypt, the grace of the law itself, the grace of all the prophets' teaching, all of these graces culminated in the once-for-all act of redemption on the Cross.

So they lost for themselves and their progeny the original righteousness that so aided them to choose rightly, but that does not mean that God gave up of them and they were not abandoned by other means of God's grace. The disorder produced by being deprived of the original righteousness meant that their descendents, we, could scarcely choose right rather than wrong (after reaching the age of reason) if not aided by the grace of baptism, the grace channeled through loving parrents who teach us to choose right, the other sacraments that come after baptism, and the many other graces that God gives. We come into the world in a state of disorder in which the aids to doing right that Adam and Eve had are missing but in which a different set of aids (baptism, which removes the disorder, though traces remain in concupiscence) has been given us since Adam and Eve and especially since Christ. We are free, as Adam and Eve were, to reject those aids and choose to do wrong. We find it easier to choose wrong because we lack the original righteousness enjoyed by Adam and Eve.

Baptized Christians no longer suffer from the disorder of congenital lack of original righteousness. So they are better prepared to accept the other graces God gives them and which they absolutely need in order to choose rightly (sola gratia). But they can still, if they choose, after being baptized, reject all those grace-aids God gives them and choose to sin and reject God.

The unbaptized have not had the original disorder/lack of original righteousness removed. They still receive graces to help choose rightly as they learn right from wrong, as they encounter acts of genuine love from other people, as they might hear the preaching of the Gospel etc., or even observe the beauty of God's creation--that too is a grace that can, if received rather than rejected, lead one to choose right rather than wrong--but they have a larger hurdle (lack of original righteousness) to overcome. They can overcome it--solely with God's help, sola gratia--but it's a bigger reach.

15 posted on 01/17/2006 2:39:15 PM PST by Dionysiusdecordealcis
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: Dionysiusdecordealcis; HarleyD

This is an excellent exposition of patristic thinking on what happened before and at the Fall as well as on what Free Will means. Orthodoxy does look at a couple of things a bit differently, or would speak of them differently. Rejecting the "aids to grace" in and of itself is not sin, though certainly it could be. All the aids to grace do is allow us to die a bit to the self, thus opening ourselves to God's grace which effects to a greater or lesser degree the theosis we were created for. Sin is choosing to remain "human like" and refusing to become "like God"; as I have said elsewhere, it is "missing the mark" which is Christ. You also speak about the Redemptive grace of the Cross. Here's something Orthodoxy agrees with but wouldn't speak of it that way. It is the entire Mystery of the Incarnation which restored our pre-Fall righteousness (which Orthodoxy believes was a potential theosis) not only the Cross (I understand that the Latin Church doesn't say it was only the Cross). In fact, Orthodoxy focuses more on the descent into the place of the dead and the Resurrection than the Crucifixion.


16 posted on 01/17/2006 5:01:44 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Kolokotronis

I normally include Incarnation, Death, Resurrection but I get tired of typing it all. The Cross without the Resurrection would have accomplished nothing, the Incarnation led inexorably to the Cross, if He had not died on the Cross there'd have been no Resurrection or descent to the place of the dead in triumph etc. So my use of Cross to epitomize the drama was not meant to deny any of the others.

It is true, of course, that devotion to the Passion has been characteristic of Latin Catholicism far more than Eastern Orthodoxy. It is so very clear (and is found already in Augustine) but this is one Western characteristic I have yet to figure out an explanation for. It is not a doctrinal matter that conflicts with Eastern emphases on the Resurrection and descent into the place of the dead--we Westerners love the Resurrection too. Rather, the differing emphases in my view are much closer to differences of taste and mentalite that undoubtedly stem from some of the ancient cultural differences between Greek East and Latin West. So you are right to underscore that I used the term Cross as my epitome and that Orthodox would choose a different epitome but we have in common a practice of epitomizing, of drawing the epic drama to a point for the sake of brevity or some other reason.

I appreciate your irenic spirit and firm defense and explication of the Orthodox faith. I seek to do nothing other than that with the Western tradition.


17 posted on 01/17/2006 6:04:56 PM PST by Dionysiusdecordealcis
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Kolokotronis

For clarification. I was not saying that rejecting grace-aids was itself sin. I wrote elliptically to try to be brief(er). In order to choose to do wrong (that's what sin is) one has to ignore, reject, refuse all the help God constantly gives us to choose to do right. The sin lies in the doing, the choosing, of wrong. But if one chooses to do wrong, then one will have in fact rejected grace assistance, because if one had accepted grace assistance, if one had gone along with grace, one would have chosen to do right.


18 posted on 01/17/2006 6:08:52 PM PST by Dionysiusdecordealcis
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Dionysiusdecordealcis

My only purpose in making my comment was to point up, for lurkers mostly, the difference emphasis which, for whatever reason, the East and the West put on elements of the Incarnation. I know you understand. I believe this is particularly important for Protestants as their focus, so it seems, is almost exclusively on the Crucifixion and atonement. As you so rightly point out, it is all one piece. Western Christians in particular do seem, however, to pass over the descent to the dead, so vividly expressed in the icon of the Resurrection and in the words of +John Chrysostomos in his Paschal Sermon which is read in every Orthodox parish as the Sermon at the midnight Paschal Liturgy. A too intense focus on the Passion, which we Orthodox commemorate with the various services of Great Friday, capped by the entombment of Christ on Great Friday evening effectively close a week of intense sadness. Our true joy is then all the more evident at midnight on Pascha when the priest emerges through the Royal Doors, the Paschal candle held aloft proclaiming "Christ is Risen!"

It is a blessing, D, that we are having this discussion right now. This morning, one of the best friends I have ever had, a fine Orthodox Christian gentleman, the father of 10 children, died. I'm heading "down South" to the funeral on Thursday. As we all know, its a hard thing to lose a close friend, an older brother really in this case. But I know he lives now with the Risen Christ and that God has prepared a place for his servant in a place of refreshment, where there is no pain, sorrow or suffering and where the faithful find their rest. Please pray for the soul of the servant of God, Albert.


19 posted on 01/17/2006 6:47:15 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Kolokotronis

Be assured of my prayers.


20 posted on 01/17/2006 7:04:22 PM PST by Dionysiusdecordealcis
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 281-295 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson