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To: Kolokotronis

As a person reading how you put it and how the other quote was it does make a HUGE difference in how it's stated...the way you stated it Kolokotronis is agreeable to me...the way the other quote stated it is not because it changes the cause of salvation from faith, which incorporates works of love, to faith and works as seperate concepts...

works in and of themselves are not "bad" in the terms of the way many lutherans think of them...properly stated works of love are among the best things we can do because as you said the doing of such works allows Christ and the Holy Spirit to hold a larger and larger portion of our hearts allowing us to have a stronger and stronger faith and therefore a desire to do more and more works of love which, well you get the point......it all works in lock step, building on the foundation, the rock of ages, Christ...I guess to me it can be said that works of love without faith are just as dead as faith without works of love...after all, isnt' the goal to let the old ways of our life before Christ to fall by the wayside and our rebirth into Christ to shine as examples to the world to demonstrate our faith in our Savior?



In Christ...


I am a conservative lutheran by the way...


40 posted on 01/16/2006 7:11:35 PM PST by phatus maximus (John 6:29...Learn it, love it, live it...)
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To: phatus maximus; Kolokotronis; annalex
As a person reading how you put it and how the other quote was it does make a HUGE difference in how it's stated...

Our abilities differ, but anyone who takes the time to read Roman Catholic teaching on works will understand that, theologically, the Latin Church and the Orthodox Church teach one and the same thing: good works are works of faith; faith without works is a dead faith.

This is not to say that, at one time, or even today, some Roman Catholics or Orthodox Christians do not, in pure ignorance or self-belief, contrary to the Church doctrines, believe that we can do good works outside of faith or that, worse, these works are "indulgences" with which we "pay off" our debt to God.

That being said, this is where we differ with Latins when it comes to after-life. The Latin teaching of Purgatory as a state where punishment leads to spiritual indulgences is foreign to Orthodoxy, but we do believe that our prayers and intercessions of the saints ease the discomfort of the souls of the departed. There is a huge difference, as you say, PM, in the two concepts. One suggests that our "indulgences" somehow pay off the debts of minor sins which cause discomfort or even pain to the souls of the departed, and (Orthodox teaching that prayers and fasts are) the easing of the discomfort of the souls who are in an unnatural state (separated from the body), with their unrepented sins exposed (shame comes to mind).

Ours are more like gentle patting on the backs and hugs; Catholic dogma is more an out-of-jail bond payment.

43 posted on 01/16/2006 7:55:00 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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