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To: Mad Dawg

Greetings in Christ! Ironically your screen name is the name of a bar i go past on the way home from work so i have a vision of a bulldog in my mind as i type...but i digress...a few respectful comments to your post..

You stated:

"Here's a thought: Jesus says, "I have other sheep that ye know not of," (displaying a regrettable use of dangling prepositions, tsk, tsk). Now I know that a lot of Christians are only too eager to explain that He meant the Gentiles, and that therefore they DO in fact know of the sheep of whom Jesus says "ye know not of." Personally, I'm content to say that Jesus is right and I don't know of all His sheep."


I agree that none of us would know who those sheep are to even claim to know is foolishness...However, we do have the Holy Spirit's inspired words to guide us to a reasonable conclusion to who is saved...we know that those who have faith in Christ as their Savior, confess their sins, etc will live with God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit in paradise...to say that those are are "ignorant" of Christ aka the Jew who doens't know Christ, is to de-value Christ's death and promise of life thru him is it not? For if it is possible that eternal life can be achieved apart from him him then those who don't know him should never try to know him for they are invinsibly "in"...I truly believe The Holy Spirit can fuel the flame of faith in Christ in anyone's heart...anywhere, anytime...but the need to believe in Christ as our savior is a doctrine throughout the oral and written traditions of the chruch. If we were discussing pre Christ, then faith in God's promise of an impending Savior, Christ, is still pointing the faithful, the believers to Christ, whether or not they knew his name.

You stated:

"Just as an exercise, "... all who believe in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" does not in itself necessarily imply that ONLY those who believe in Him can have everlasting life."

In regard to your use of John 3:16 for your point I would contend that if you continue the contextual meaning and include verses 17, 18 you will see the additional clarification that whoever does not believe is condemned...this tell us that those who do not believe + those who do believe = all who can either believe or not believe. There is no middle ground on this question, either you believe in Christ's promise or you don't...For those who are not familiar with the text see below:

"16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."



Regards in Christ...


On a lighter note, I wonder if the arguemnt of invincible ingorance works for speeding tickets?


39 posted on 01/16/2006 6:56:00 PM PST by phatus maximus (John 6:29...Learn it, love it, live it...)
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To: phatus maximus
On a lighter note, I wonder if the argument of invincible ignorance works for speeding tickets?


No. Neither does the temporary insanity defense.
65 posted on 01/17/2006 5:09:03 AM PST by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: phatus maximus

I'm going to try like this:

Even good works are a gift. Merit is a gift. Faith is a gift. Salvation is a gift.

And I am (I think) an orthodox Catholic.


68 posted on 01/17/2006 5:41:33 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Allahu Fubar! (with apologies to Sheik Yerbouty))
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To: phatus maximus

>> I wonder if the arguemnt of invincible ingorance works for speeding tickets? <<

I know you are only joking, but you hit on a good metaphor, because justice comes from God, and human justice is an imitation (albeit very pale) of divine justice.

If a man is zooming 65 MPH down a rural highway and he flies past a school zone (15 MPH), and strikes a child, he will be arrested. The judge will ask him, "Did you not see the speed limit sign?"

If the sign was cloaked by undergrowth, the man will show the judge that the sign could not be seen. The judhe may then ask, "Surely, you can know the law without being told. If you did not see the sign, you must know that it is not reasonable to drive past a school at 65 MPH.

If the man argues that the school was recessed on the property, and many trees were planted in front of it, and there was no crosswalk, the judge will set him free.

He will turn instead to the school administrator and say, "Why did you allow the overgrowth to conceal the sign? Why did you not paint crosswalks? Why was there no school guard on duty?" And the administrator will be sued, and will be found liable for the child's death.

I can't remeber chapter and verse, but I thinnk this is from Ezekiel (paraphrased): "If you admonish a person for his sins, and he continues in his sinfulness, he will suffer judgment. You shall have your reward. But if you do not admonish the sinner, he shall be innocent of his sin, and you shall be held guilty for his transgressions."


72 posted on 01/17/2006 6:17:30 AM PST by dangus
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