Posted on 01/16/2006 12:59:35 AM PST by Gamecock
God chose between Jacob and Esau before they were born. While they were still in the womb, He said, "The elder shall serve the younger" (Genesis 25:23b; Romans 9:12). Of course, God foreknew the attitudes and responses of each son before he was born. God made His choice with the knowledge that Jacob would be a spiritual man and Esau a fleshly one. Yet, no one can say that Jacob was elected because he was so wonderful, kind, or generous. God simply chose him.
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? (9:14). Our logical conclusion to this is that God is unfair. However, as we said before, carrying the truths of God to our own logical conclusions is dangerous. There are facts about each case that we don't know or understand, because our knowledge is limited. We cannot reason as God or know all the things He knows.
Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid (9:14). God does what is right. His selections are perfectly justified. He bestows His love and grace upon whom He wills, and He has the right to do so. Thank God that He chose me!
You may say, "God didn't choose me."
"How do you know you're not chosen?"
"Because I'm not a Christian."
"Why don't you accept Jesus?"
"I don't want to."
Isn't it amazing that you don't want to choose God, yet you want to find fault with Him because He didn't choose you? The only way to know whether or not He chose you is to believe. You'll then discover that He had chosen you before you were even born. No one has ever called upon the name of the Lord and been told, "Sorry, your name isn't on the list."
I have even more difficulty when He says, "Jacob have I loved." Jacob wasn't so lovable. I have some difficulty when God says, "Esau have I hated."
My greatest difficulty comes when God says that He loves me. I'm not at all lovable! God's glorious grace is manifested in His love for any of us - Jacob, me, or you.
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). God would be justified in destroying all men. If God wiped out the human race, no one could point a finger of accusation at Him. So why are we accusing God of unfairness when He chooses to redeem some from destruction?
Again, we cannot enter into God's reasoning processes. God operates on a level far above ours. "For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?" (Isaiah 40:13; Romans 11:34). On occasion, we've all tried to counsel God about how to run this world. He doesn't seem to be very interested in our ideas. How foolish for us to think that we can counsel Him. "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:8-9).
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion (9:15). God has the right to do whatever He wishes. If He has mercy or compassion on some people, no one can fault Him for that. I thank Him for His mercy and compassion on me.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy (9:16). The work of God's favor is out of my hands. It isn't found by desire or effort "of him that willeth." I may have worked hard for the Lord, but God's favor isn't found "of him that runneth." "To God be the glory, great things He hath done," says the hymn. Salvation is of the Lord.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? (9:17-19).
How can God blame me for being what I am, since I'm only what He's made me? If God has chosen to harden my heart, how can He punish me for it? Since He hardened Pharaoh's heart, how could He hold Pharaoh responsible for his evil? Who can resist God's will?
The Book of Exodus tells us that "the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh." The Hebrew word for "hardened" means "made firm." God simply confirmed Pharaoh's own decision, but He didn't make the decision for him. If you should harden your heart against God and choose to go to hell, God will make firm your decision. You say, "That's unfair! I want Him to break me down and change my mind." However, it is fair. If you're uncomfortable around God and want nothing to do with Him, why should He force you to live in His presence forever? If you're miserable around Him, God won't save you. He'll let you spend eternity in the abysmal darkness far from heaven. Yet you object, "That's unfair!"
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? (9:20a). A good question. Who are you to argue with God?
Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? (9:20b-21). A potter puts the clay on his wheel and cuts it in half. With one half he can make a beautiful vessel to hold roses, and with the other half he can make a spittoon. The potter has the right to make whatever he wants with his clay. Can the clay that was made into a spittoon say, "Why did you make me like this?" The clay has no power over its destiny. It's in the hands of the potter.
The thought of God's sovereignty is frightening. In fact, the doctrine of the sovereignty of God would terrify me if I didn't know the full truth. When I realize that God is love, all fear is suddenly gone. Without this knowledge, I would resist God and His touch. "Will you make me into a garbage pail?" Only when I know that God loves me and chooses the best for me can I yield to the Master Potter.
The potter knows what he wants to make when he begins to work on a lump of clay. The clay only discovers the intent of the potter by yielding to the potter's touch. God has a concept of what He wants me to be when He starts to work in my life. I can only find the mind of God by yielding to His touch.
What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction (9:22). God had such patience with Pharaoh! He endured Pharaoh's rebukes and stubbornness to show the world both His patience with the rebellious and His wrath on them.
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory (9:23). Since God can do what He wants, He can make some vessels fit for destruction by His wrath and others fit for glory by His mercy.
God wants to bestow His mercy upon you as a vessel. He prepares, molds, and fits you for the glory He wants you to experience in the presence of His love. The ball is in your court. God offers you His mercy through Jesus Christ, and you can accept it or reject it.
To avoid heresy, these two truths - God's sovereignty and the responsibility of man - need to be kept in balance.
From Chapter 9.
The beauty of the Gospel is that God chooses losers, and makes them winners - and allows them participate in that process.
Given that God has absolute foreknowledge, it is impossible to deny that God chooses winners.
I have no problem with it.
This is another example of the danger of the attempt to adopt colloquial theology. Its hard to do so and stay orthodox. Only C.S. Lewis, J. Budziszewsk, and Lauren Winner have ever pulled it off in my experience.
You know we've had a relative truce between the neeners and the GRPLs lately. This thread appears to have fractured that truce.
To repeat a question posed in the past:
Is there any point at which GOD did not know everything? If there is, then that god is not GOD.
A lot of people around here think thta CS Lewis is a rank heretic. I suspect it is the same people who think that Chuck Smith is a rank heretic.
You are simply saying that God chooses sinners (losers), something with which I heartily agree.
On the other hand, God chooses believers (winners), something with which I also heartily agree. No one in heaven will be an UNbeliever.
[Frame's Note]: That is a scary possibility! In rejecting "divine determinism," the Arminian in effect embraces a determinism coming from some mysterious other source -- another god? the Devil? world history? impersonal laws? In any case, this idea certainly does not leave much room for free will.]
But ultimately God's predestination remains the key element. For God is the one who (1) foreknows Joe's decision and (2) creates the world in such a way that Joe's decision will be made. The decisive factor is God's foreknowing creation. Creation is what sets the whole universe in motion. Is it too much to say that God's foreknowing creation causes Joe to make the decision he makes?
Thus, even Arminianism implicitly concedes the Calvinist point without admitting it. Therefore, some Arminians today have abandoned the premise that God foreknows everything and have moved to a view more akin to that of process theology. But this move is exceedingly dubious scripturally.
Excert From Apologetics to the Glory of God by John Frame pp. 44-45
Answer #26.
Haven't we answered this question enough times, x?
As does the Calvinist. The Calvinist insists that God changes man's will so that he must choose God and the Arminian conceeds that God changes a man's will at least sufficiently so that he CAN choose God.
IMO, where the Calvinist goes wrong is when he denies that foreknowledge plays any part in election. IMO, where the Arminian goes wrong is when he insists that foreknowledge is the only thing that plays a part in it.
The point is that God is sovereign and man is responsible.
Excellent post Harley.
Somehow I can't see God as a bookie.
The better question xman, is God the potter and are we the clay. That is the way election is explained in Scripture. Not a horse race where God uses his omniscience to pick the winner in the Trifecta.
God sure is fortunate some people chose Him.
What would have become of Christ's sacrifice if no one had?
****The difference between Calvinists and Catholics is largely a difference over the MEANING of what it means to have free will.****
I disagree. Most of us would say it's over Grace and Works.
Somehow I can't see myself participating in this thread anymore.
Bye.
Gamecock, you can do better than this article.
Guess what? It's still on Chuckies website Marlowe. Obviously he has no trouble with the analogy. It's right there for all the world to see, isn't it!?! As long as it's on the website and hasn't been retracted it is fair game, isn't it P?
Marlowe has left the Building.
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