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To: joesbucks
There is no cliff mentioned in scripture regarding this incident.

It is inferred.

Secondly, the scripture in Acts says "headfirst". A hanged body does not fall headfirst.

The greek word does not state that it was "head first". It has been translated as "headlong" from a word which means a proned position. Assuming it was headfirst, if he was hanging and his feet hit ground first and then he went over a cliff, his body would have inverted and he would have gone headfirst. There is no contradiction there.

Witnesses may often see things differently. One may say the day was sunny, another may say there was cloud cover. Only one may be right.

It depends on their own location and the time of observation. The descriptions here are not mutually exclusive. They can be and have been logically reconciled.

And yes, there are others.

Bring 'em on. Start a thread.

187 posted on 01/13/2006 7:41:43 AM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: P-Marlowe
There is no cliff mentioned in scripture regarding this incident. It is inferred.

Where? When you start letting inferences go, then suddenly you begin having a living document.

The greek word does not state that it was "head first".

My error. It is headlong. But still means head before the rest of the body. Please give me the Greek word.

It depends on their own location and the time of observation. The descriptions here are not mutually exclusive. They can be and have been logically reconciled.

Again, it's not what scripture says. Again,

189 posted on 01/13/2006 7:47:31 AM PST by joesbucks
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To: P-Marlowe

Here's a spin different from yours:

How did Judas Iscariot Die?
This one is pretty simple once all the facts
are understood, but until then, it's a little
confusing.

Judas was the apostle that just before Jesus
was crucified, Judas decided to turn in Jesus for
BLOOD MONEY. He made a deal with the high priests
where he would get paid 30 pieces of silver in
exchange for pointing out where and who Jesus was
so the soldiers could then take and arrest him.
Soon after Jesus was arrested, Jesus was deserted,
beaten, mutilated and then crucified.

Judas knew that they'd do this to Jesus, but he
was thinking of the money rather than what they'd
do to his good friend Jesus. In letting his greed
take him over, Judas ended up losing all his
mercy and kindness concerning him.

After Jesus died, Judas went back to the temple
and told the priests he didn't want the money
any more and tossed it back in the temple. Judas
then went and hanged himself and died. See Mat 27
for the entire account of this.

The high priests didn't want the money since it
was the "price of blood" or BLOOD MONEY. So since
they didn't want to put the money in treasury, they
decided to use it to buy the field that Judas would
be buried at.

What then causes people concern is that later in
Acts, Judas seems to be dying by a different manner,
specifically:

Ac 1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must
needs have been fulfilled, which the
Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake
before concerning Judas, which was guide
to them that took Jesus.
17 For he was numbered with us, and had
obtained part of this ministry.
18 Now this man purchased a field with the
reward of iniquity; and falling headlong,
he burst asunder in the midst, and all
his bowels gushed out.
19 And it was known unto all the dwellers
at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is
called in their proper tongue, Aceldama,
that is to say, The field of blood.

At first glance this verse set seems to be
saying that Judas fell and split open his guts
when he landed, turning the field to blood.

But when the verses were written was that what
they really meant?

No, it was not.

A couple of items concerning what's being said:

1. Falling was a common concept used to denote
"falling from God" or leaving God. Judas in
turning in Jesus, he's then rejected the
ARM OF GOD.

2. The "bowels" were where the Hebrews considered
the MERCY and KINDNESS to reside, similar to
our thinking of the heart as where mercy
kindness and tenderness resides: "broken heart",
"tender hearted", "heartless", etc... For the
Hebrews, those concepts were described with the
"bowels", not the heart.

Essentially, the verse set is saying in their
terms of the day, that Judas fell recklessly from
God, lost all his mercy and kindness and turned
in his good friend Jesus. His having done so, that
purchased the field he was buried at with said
BLOOD MONEY, the "price of blood" giving that
"field of blood".

For those not wanting to read the verse set this
way, they're then left with reconciling THREE physical
impossibilities:

1. Judas in hanging, he would be falling feet first
not head first.

2. If Judas is assumed to be falling head first,
he'd split open his head, not his guts.

3. Judas in falling from a tree he could hang himself
from, he'd not have enough impact to split open
his guts anyway.

In other words, the Acts verse set can't describe
an actual physical falling, but it can describe
Judas's falling from God... his SPIRITUAL falling
from God after losing all his mercy and kindness.

Therefore the two accounts do in fact align:

* Matthew describes how Judas PHYSICALLY died.
* Acts describes how Judas SPIRITUALLY fell from God.

God made it all, Jesus died for our sins.


190 posted on 01/13/2006 7:53:34 AM PST by joesbucks
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To: P-Marlowe

I agree with you on this point. The second, "view from the ground" rendition does not rule out hanging. I read a medical analysis (I'm sorry, i don't have the source) which indicated that a body hanging for several hours in that heat would likely eventually slip from the noose and gastric distension would cause, esentially, a spilling of guts in hitting the ground. If it were a long fall from a cliff, even more so.


195 posted on 01/13/2006 8:32:38 AM PST by Rutles4Ever
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