Vatican moves to clear Judas’ name

YNet News ^ | Jan. 12, 2006

[Blessed]

>only those who profess the true religion, and who are communicants in good standing in any evangelical church...." may partake<

I don't know what evangelical church you belong to but anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior is welcome at a Southern Baptist Communion Table.

[Phsstpok]

I'm not kidding in my post, though I might be exaggerating in order to make a point, but I do not pretend to consider myself competent to declare someone a saint or not. I'm not 100% certain of what the idea of saint means anymore anyway.

However, I am 100% confident in my belief that Judas was also subject to salvation. Do you deny that he would be saved if he repented his sins and believed in Jesus? I pity you if you think you are competent to answer that question in any way but a simple statement that Jesus' love would include him too.

Everything beyond that should be irrelevant for a believer in Christ. He will work out all of the questions in His time. I don't feel the need to condemn Judas and say "I'm not damned, like him." We are all damned, except by God's grace as proven to us through Jesus Christ. Have you got any better formulation than that?

[Blessed]

>As I said, this is way above my pay grade, but I haven't seen your credentials as St. Jerome to declare what "Scripture means." Otherwise we must be forced, by your logic to accept the Gospel of St. Blessed. <

You come up with a half baked idea for which you can find no scriptural reference or a Orthodox Theologian that agrees with you and I am twisting scripture.That is rich.

[magisterium]

Good catch! ;-) My somewhat limited Greek forced me to the lexicon for this one, but apegxato looks like it translates close enough to "choked himself" for my taste. Still, it's a fair inference, again harmonizing the passages, that he choked himself via hanging, as it is both intuitively more efficient and fits better with the necessity of his being over some precipice and falling hard and fast to the ground.

[bornacatholic]

Religion means bond with God. He started it.

[bornacatholic]

In the case of Judas, If I were Judas, and had betrayed Gods only Son..

*Me and thee do that each time we freely choose to sin

[bornacatholic]

No WAY. The media ain't trustworthy? You mean that when Dan Rather told me he had documents about evidence about Bush and the National Guard he wasn't being truthful?

[Phsstpok]

How about Hitler? St. Adolph? His evil ultimately led to the restoration of the Nation of Israel.

Wow, I missed this one. You are now serious. The restoration of the Nation of Israel is some evil deed to add to the tally against Hitler? I have a feeling that this is NOT what you meant, but it sure reads that way.

To the specifics, could Adolph Hitler now be in Heaven? My belief is YES. God has proved to us that He will forgive our sins. He proved that through His Son Jesus Christ. That includes everyone and every sin.

Do you somehow think you are competent to challenge GOD over that little detail?

I expect to go to Heaven because I accept Jesus as my Lord and believe in God's forgiveness. Do I expect to get there without having to face judgment (meaning acknowledgment) of my sins while I lived? Absolutely NOT. God is merciful, but He absolutely not let us hide from our sins. I'm ready because I have accepted the message His Son sacrificed His life to bring us. However, I will NOT be surprised if Hitler, Pol Pot or Osama is wandering around in the same glowing cloud around The Almighty when I get there, assuming that they have worked out the issues that they dumped on themselves by their actions while alive. I happen to think that I will see Judas there, but that is open to interpretation. I don't pretend to have His judgment. I just believe His Word that He has forgiven me and that I have to believe in His Son to make that matter.

[bornacatholic]

Although Rev. Neuhaus isn't part of the Teaching authoriy of the Catholic Church, it is true the Church has never authoritatively taught that Judas is in Hell.

Judas in the old cath encyclopedia

But, apart from this consideration, it may be urged that in exaggerating the original malice of Judas, or denying that there was even any good in him, we minimize or miss the lesson of this fall. The examples of the saints are lost on us if we think of them as being of another order without our human weaknesses. And in the same way it is a grave mistake to think of Judas as a demon without any elements of goodness and grace. In his fall is left a warning that even the great grace of the Apostolate and the familiar friendship of Jesus may be of no avail to one who is unfaithful. And, though nothing should be allowed to palliate the guilt of the great betrayal, it may become more intelligible if we think of it as the outcome of gradual failing in lesser things. So again the repentance may be taken to imply that the traitor deceived himself by a false hope that after all Christ might pass through the midst of His enemies as He had done before at the brow of the mountain. And though the circumstances of the death of the traitor give too much reason to fear the worst, the Sacred Text does not distinctly reject the possibility of real repentance. And Origen strangely supposed that Judas hanged himself in order to seek Christ in the other world and ask His pardon (In Matt., tract. xxxv).

* So far, the only individual the Ordinary Universal Magisterium has taught is in Hell is the official who ruled Franco Harris' "Hail Mary" catch was legitimate. Many Theologians consider that only speculative and not dogmatic

[P-Marlowe]

Do you deny that he would be saved if he repented his sins and believed in Jesus?

Nice hypothetical, but apparently Judas simply did not do that.

From Gill's Commentary:

Act 1:25 - That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship,.... Of the ministry of the apostles, or of the apostolical ministration; which lay in preaching the Gospel, administering ordinances, planting churches, and working miracles; and which part, lot, or inheritance, Judas had; see Act_1:17.

And from which Judas by transgression fell; by betraying his Lord, whose apostle he was, he was turned out of his office, and had no longer part in the apostolical ministry:

that he might go to his own place; which may be understood of Judas, and of his going to hell, as the just punishment of his sin; which is commonly so called by the Jews, who often explain this phrase, "his place", by hell; as when it is said of Laban, Gen_31:55 that he "returned to his place", it intimates, say they (d), that he returned to his place, which was prepared for him in hell; and so likewise when it is said of Balaam, Num_24:25 that he "returned to his place", they observe (e), that

"he did not return from his evil way, but returned to his place; and so intimates by saying, to his place, that which was prepared for him in hell, as the Rabbins of blessed memory say (f); "they came everyone from his own place", Job_2:11 a man from his house, a man from his country it is not written, but a man from his place, which was prepared for him in hell; and because they came to show mercy to Job, they were delivered from hell, and became worthy of the world to come; and so here, and "he returned to his place", המוכן לו בגהינם, "which was prepared for him in hell".

And another of their writers (g), on the same passage, has this remark, and he returned to his place, and he does not say,

"he went on his way, for he was driven out of his way, and went down to hell.

And agreeably to what is said of Job's friends, the Targumist on Job_2:11 paraphrases the words thus,

"and there came a man, or everyone from his place, and by this merit they were delivered from the place, prepared for them in hell.

And which place the same Targumist on Job_8:4 calls אתר מרדיהון, "the place of their rebellion"; that is, procured by it: and so Judas's own place was what he had merited by his sin, and was righteously appointed for him; and though it was not peculiar to him, but common to all impenitent sinners, yet very proper for him, as a betrayer; for it is a settled point with the Jews (h), that

"he that betrays an Israelite into the hands of the Gentiles (so Judas betrayed his master), whether in his body, or in his substance, has no part in the world to come.

This clause is by some understood not of Judas, but of Matthias, or of him that was to come in the room of Judas; and by "his own place" it is thought is meant, the "part of the ministry and apostleship", in the former clause, and which the Alexandrian copy reads, "the place of this ministry", he was to take; and now Judas by his iniquity falling from it, made way for another, for Matthias to go to his own place, which God had in his counsel and purposes designed for him; or "into his place", as the Syriac and Arabic versions render it; that is, into the place of Judas, to take his place among the apostles, in his room and stead: the Alexandrian copy reads, "into that righteous place",

(d) Tzeror Hammor, fol. 43. 2. (e) Ib. fol. 127. 1. (f) Vid. Midrash Kohelet, fol. 74. 3. (g) Baal Hatturim in Numb. xxiv. 25. (h) Maimon. Hilchot Chobel, &c. c. 8. sect. 9.

[Phsstpok]

Nope, I just think you are arrogant.

Not my problem.

You eventually have to explain your hubris to a Higher Authority. I feel I'm prepared to meet His judgement. Have I sinned? Oh yeah! Do I acknowledge those sins to Him and accept His judgement and mercy? Absolutely. It appears you feel that you are far above that.

You epitomize the "arrogant Christian." The attitude you profess is "I'm saved, you're not." YOU are not the judge of that. If you are confident in your salvation then I'm happy for you. If you wish to condemn all who don't agree with your narrow interpretation of God's Word then I pity you because you won't be answering to me for that arrogance. You will be answering to God. I am humble before Him. You, most obviously, are not. You claim to speak for Him.

Blessed, you got some 'splaining to do.

[EequalsMC2]

Thanks bornacatholic.

I get the impression that there are some here that may know me better than I know myself. Maybe I reveal more than intended.

The human struggle continues, we only have ourselves left to help each other

We all choose to sin. Yet, none of us has equal strength. I prefer to believe that the true GOD Understands this. But, I myself can understand one who murders for a particular reason and still know the debt needs to be paid.

We all sin and fall short of the glory of God, yet we can not all recognize this, and seek forgiveness.

[P-Marlowe]

Actually you don't need to hang yourself from a tree to hang yourself. All you need to do is take a rope, tie a slip knot and wrap it around your neck and then tie it to your feet with your legs bent and then straighten your legs. If you were to do this on a sloped precipice you would ensure your death. When you lost consciousness, your body would fall off the precipice. I suspect this is exactly how Judas did it.

We don't know if it was the hanging or stangulation that killed him or being squashed on the rocks. I suspect the latter since in hanging you don't really die until about 5 minutes after you black out.

[netmilsmom]

>>Is this a Catholic only thread?<<

>>Every time I show up on one of these bizzare threads the Anti-Catholic Troll Hunter squad shows up to shoo me away. I'm just curious if our input is welcome on this rather bizzare topic.<<

Listen to Alouette, she posted it.

[EequalsMC2]

Thank you wallcrawlr. That is what I have always believed to be true. If God can reveal himsself to pagans who have not even seen a "missionary", He can speak to and comfort any of His children in need.

[Diego1618]

I think the main problem with with this story is the confusion some translators have created by saying "Judas bought a field" in Act 1:18. This seems to contradict Matthew 27:5 where the Greek says, [And having cast down the pieces of silver in the temple he withdrew and having gone away hanged himself.] verse 6-7 in plain English, [The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this money into the treasury, since it is blood money." So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners.]

The Greek in Acts 1:18, is describing what happened to his body after he hangs himself: [This indeed(Peter speaking of Judas)then got a field out of the reward of unrighteousness, and having headlong fallen burst in midst and gushed out all bowels his.]

So Judas did not buy a field....he instead threw the money back into the temple and went and hanged himself. See also Zechariah 11:12-13. After hanging himself, and his body neglected and ignored by most....it rotted, and fell from the noose and upon hitting the ground, literally burst open in its rotted condition.....and his insides came flowing out. He indirectly bought the field with his efforts.

[Alouette]

Listen to Alouette, she posted it.

I am not a Catholic or even a Christian. I found this article and posted it because it seemed unusual and I wanted to see what Catholics and other Christians have to say about it.

I am reading the thread and learning but I have no opinion on this subject.

[P-Marlowe]

Where do you get the idea that his body hung until the rope broke? That does not appear very logical.

After you hang yourself your body begins to mummify immediately losing as much as 5 pounds of water per day. If he hung there long enough, the body would not be more likely to break a rope, but less likely.

I suspect that he threw the money and left. I don't think he immediately killed himself, but probably waited a few days. In the interim, the priests used the money to buy the potters field in the name of Judas and Judas later killed himself probably not even realizing that he was about to plunge headlong onto his own property.

[P-Marlowe]

If the RCC can uniterally exonerate those 1st century Jews in the death of Christ, why not Judas?

Jesus forgave the Jews and the Romans from the cross.

[F16Fighter]

Another advocation of biblical revisionism from one more stealth subverter within the RCC.