The purpose-driven pastor (Rick Warren calls Christian fundamentalists an enemy)

Philadelphia Inquirer ^ | Jan. 08, 2006 | Paul Nussbaum

[Terriergal]

Another tidbit-- Cyrano and I have been in those churches where the musicians aren't very talented, the piano is badly out of tune... My dad gladly served a little podunk congregation even though he was a professional musician for 30 years, one of the best in the area. He didn't care, he had learned that in the service of God you cannot force professionalism out of anyone. God doesn't care about it. I certainly understand the demand for excellence in secular arenas, don't get me wrong. And it's good to strive for excellence in all we do. But it is not criteria for what pleases God, or those with no talent would be left out in the cold. It all depends on the attitude of worship before God. I have always enjoyed willing hearts in worship, rather than talented voices. Sure we get together and practice and try to improve or add things, but mistakes are made, people plateau or just can't learn that fast, and in the end at least we offered our best - this is where the relationship part comes in - another thing Warren emphasises in the wrong way. I want to develop rapport with people by working on music together. I enjoy it, even if they are not catching on that quickly or sing out of tune. I would never want anyone to think we have to be perfect up there. Cyrano was the music director at our ex church, and I was on the worship team every other week. We were capable of being more professional, but to what end? To the end of hurting and excluding those who, by no fault of their own, didn't measure up to the demands of the whiners who figured everyone should be as good as what they hear on the radio? And why did they want that kind of music? To move their emotions, that's why. In my view, if the plain and simple truth of Scripture doesn't move your emotions first, then trying to concoct it with good music is an illusion. If the plain truth does move you, you won't be distracted by some bad music.

speaking of emotions, I'm sitting here getting all overcome with emotion, frankly, with tears and deep sense of love for all you believers here who are wrestling with me over this. You are all so precious. I don't deserve the amount of patience you are giving me, please know that I know that.

[blue-duncan]

"Marketing strategies for growing the church is thinking like the world."

Paul had a marketing strategy. He went to major radiating cities. He went to the synagogues where he knew people were. He went only to cities that had not been evangelized. He tailored his message and method to his audience. He went back to the churches he started to make sure they were using the Word properly. That is a marketing strategy that is still in use today.

[blue-duncan]

"I want to develop rapport with people by working on music together. I enjoy it, even if they are not catching on that quickly or sing out of tune. I would never want anyone to think we have to be perfect up there. Cyrano was the music director at our ex church, and I was on the worship team every other week. We were capable of being more professional, but to what end? To the end of hurting and excluding those who, by no fault of their own,"

Im sure, just by reading your posts, you and Cyrano did not let these people wallow in mediocrity but had them practice, practice, practice. Of course you wanted them to strive for perfection, they were offering to God. They strive for perfection in their jobs and family life, why expect less in church? Now if they are like me they will never reach it here but there is always an opening for an usher, away from the music.

By the way, did I say thank you for this thread?

[lupie]

I like to think that Paul went where God sent him and when. God's strategy, not Paul's.

[RobRoy]

I do have a problem with that first one: "Rick Warren has publicly said that he will not preach against homosexuality and abortion as it may offend some in his congregation."

We are not to be pleasers of men, at least not to the point of putting their point of view before Gods.

[pby]

"He tailored his message and method to his audience."

No he didn't.

On Cyprus Paul (Acts 13):

"proclaimed the Word of God"

Also said, "You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right...Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord?"

In Pisidian Antioch Paul (Acts 13):

"Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the Law of Moses. Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you: "Look you scoffers, wonder and perish..."

In Iconium Paul (Acts 14):

"...Spoke so effectively that a great number of Jews and Gentiles believed."

"...speaking boldly for the Lord..."

"There was a plot afoot...to mistreat them and stone them".

They "fled"...and "continued to preach."

"In Lystra and Derbe Paul (Acts 14):

"We are bringing the good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the Living God, who made heaven and earth and sea and everything in them."

"Then some Jews came from Antioch and Iconium and won the crowd over. They stoned Paul and dragged him outside the city, thinking he was dead."

In Antioch and Syria Paul (Acts 14):

"...preached the good news in that city and won a large number."

In Perga (Acts 14):

"...and when they had preached the Word..."

In Macedonia:

"...concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them."

In Phillipi (Acts 16):

"The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message."

"These men [Paul and Silas] are advocating customs unlawful for us Romans to accept or practice. The crowd joined in the attack against Paul and Silas, and the magistrates ordered them to be stripped and beaten. After they had been severly flogged, they were thrown into prison, and the jailer was ordered to guard them carefully....Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him."

In Thessalonica:

"...he reasoned with them from Scriptures, explaining and proving that Christ had to suffer and rise from the dead..."

Of Paul's message the Jews said, "They are all defying Ceasar's decrees, saying that there is another king, one called Jesus."

In Berea:

"...Paul was preaching the word of God..."

In Athens:

"...he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols. So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews...Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection [and Paul said] In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.

In Corinth, Ephesus, Greece and Jerusalem Paul's message and methods were the same as noted above!

You are just parroting a purpose driven myth that is used to justify unbiblical messages and methods.

Please read the book of Acts for yourself...As you can see from the above citations, Paul's ministry is in direct opposition to the purpose driven model.

Paul just preached the Word/doctrine with boldness...no felt needs; no culturally adapted method or message...Paul had an anti-cultural method/message that he was reviled for by both Jews and Greeks...to the point that they tried to kill him.

And note that Paul was not concerned about offending anyone and that his evangelizing was done outside of the church. When he was at churches, he reported on what God was doing and edified the believers.

[brwnsuga]

Uhhh.......I said the ARTICLE was not clear enough.

[pby]

In my opinion, given the evidence...Rick is a pleaser of men.

If he wasn't, he couldn't consult Synagogue 3000, using purpose driven principles, helping them to become more hip in order to increase numbers.

The Apostle Paul enetered synagogues and reasoned with them from Scripture proving that Jesus was ressurected and the Christ.

The Apostle Paul preached the Gospel and Biblical doctrine to Greeks and idol-worshippers, telling them to repent.

In contrast, Rick Warren enters the synagogue and assists their teachers in discovering new ways to be relevant and increase numbers (Thus, Yom Kippur Yoga and the like).

Also in contrast, Rick Warren doesn't address false teachers with the Gospel, nor Biblical doctrine, nor the message of repentance...he endorses them, uses them in his materials, and implements their unbiblical practices (yoga, contemplative prayer, feel good messages, labyrinths, mysticism, and etc.)

[pby]

"He went only to the cities that had not been evangelized."

Not accurate.

[RobRoy]

When you are on a worship team, your primary goal is not to worship God. Your primary goal is to "lead" worship. When you do things that distract and take peoples focus away from worship and towards you (be it through grandstanding or musical incompetence, or raising your hands while singing, pulling the microphone away from your mouth), you are hampering worship.

Bad playing is not a good thing, be it in secular music or worship services. But in each case, it is bad for a different reason. And everything is about "why".

[Cyrano]

I am finding myself wanting to read some of Warrens books to find out what he would say to some of these attacks.

I think that would be wise. When I was looking into this whole thing, I started by reading Warren's own work. Frankly, I wouldn't expect a lot of clear commentary or refutation, but without that base you can't evaluate the merits of anything (positive or negative) regarding Warren. And there is much worth evaluating, IMO.

I can appreciate how things appear, particularly if you haven't looked into this much, but FWIW, saying Warren appears the underdog because of a thread on FR is like saying Bill Gates is small fry because a Macintosh BBS contained a post trashing Windows.

Cyrano

[blue-duncan]

You really need to take some time and study Acts to see how Paul presented the Word to the Jews in the synagogue, the gentiles in Asia Minor, the Greeks in Philippi, Thessolonica and the Greeks at Mars Hill. Each presentation is different. The Word is the same but the cultural presentation suits the audience. To the Jews he starts with the Old Testament. To the Greeks at Mars Hill he starts with the Greek gods and philosophy. To Titus and the Greeks he mentions poets. To some he teaches, others he preaches and at Mars Hill it is an apologetic defense. Before Festus and Felix, because they were gentiles and not readily conversant with the Old Testament it was a personal defense. To Agrippa, who was a renegade Jew of the Herodian sect, he presents his defense according to the Jewish religion. Same Word but suited to his audience.

[blue-duncan]

Where? He said he did not build on another's foundation.

[blue-duncan]

With the Macedonian call, it looks like Paul was making the plans but open to the Lord's over ruling them. I expect that's how we are supposed to make them.

[Full Court]

http://wayoflife.org/fbns/churchdir/!churches.htm

conservative church finder page

[Full Court]

TerriGal said: "BTW I am only a friend of God if he calls me friend... and that is only if I do what he has commanded - speak the truth with boldness, not catering to fleshly desires of unsaved people."

Blue Said :No, No, No, you are a friend of God because you are a child of God, even when sitting on a stand in camo in the freezing cold waiting for Bambi to come along.


Jesus said :John 15:14  Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

[Full Court]

We were capable of being more professional, but to what end? To the end of hurting and excluding those who, by no fault of their own, didn't measure up to the demands of the whiners who figured everyone should be as good as what they hear on the radio?
And why did they want that kind of music? To move their emotions, that's why. In my view, if the plain and simple truth of Scripture doesn't move your emotions first, then trying to concoct it with good music is an illusion. If the plain truth does move you, you won't be distracted by some bad music.

Amen sister!

[Full Court]

You really need to take some time and study Acts to see how Paul presented the Word to the Jews in the synagogue, the gentiles in Asia Minor, the Greeks in Philippi, Thessolonica and the Greeks at Mars Hill.

He never sugarcoated anything and he certainly never failed to preach the Gospel to the Jews, like Rick Warren did.

[Full Court]

Where is it in Scripture that anyone needed a worship leader in order to Worship God?

[DocRock]

"We've been looking but I am beginning to despair now of ever finding a place to worship, that hasn't been contaminated with bad theology and bad music."

If the PDL preachers don't want you, then you should look at those they call "enemies". Fundamentalist. Just do a quick search on "Independent Fundamental Baptist" and I'm sure you can find one in your area that still preaches from the Bible. Don't be shocked when you see all the Fundamental Baptist Churches on a Goggle search, and be sure and read a couple of their "mission statements". Most have the traditional services and sing traditional hymns from hymn books and preach about sin and hell and the saving blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The Lord led me to an Independent Fundamental Baptist Church close to 20 years ago, and I'm still amazed at what I missed growing up in the Southern Baptist Convention.